Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:29 pm
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3346691Perivascular iron deposition and other vascular damage in multiple sclerosis.
Adams CW.
Division of Histopathology, United Medical School of Guy's Hospital, University of London, UK.
Abstract
Evidence of damage to cerebral vein walls was sought in 70 cases of multiple sclerosis. Seventy control cases were also examined. The multiple sclerosis cases showed venous intramural fibrinoid deposition (7%), recent haemorrhages (17%), old haemorrhages revealed by haemosiderin deposition (30%), thrombosis (6%) and thickened veins (19%). In all, 41% of all multiple sclerosis cases showed some evidence of vein damage.
Occasional control cases showed haemosiderin deposition in the brain but, unlike the multiple sclerosis cases, these were diffuse and almost entirely related to coexistent cardiovascular or cerebrovascular disease.
Haemosiderin deposition was common in the substantia nigra and other pigmented nuclei in all cases. It is concluded that the cerebral vein wall in multiple sclerosis is subject to chronic inflammatory damage, which promotes haemorrhage and increased permeability, and constitutes a form of vasculitis.
these are links I found:cheerleader wrote:bump--since Dr. Embry mentioned this as a "negative" study--
my point is that it's a moot study, because ferritin in CSF is not a correct biomarker for chronic venous disease.
Hemosiderin is.
cheer
Of course, another way of expressing these results is that RR MS patients were more than twice as likely to have pathologic CSF levels than normal, PP MS patients were almost three times as likely and SP MS were a whopping 8 times as likely. Also, these pathological levels persisted over a three year period. On the positive side, to counteract the sting likely to be felt by those pinning their hopes on Zamboni, these same researchers have graciously announced that chocolate rations have been increased to 20 grams a day!!!dreddk wrote:From Neurology journal.
Normal CSF ferritin levels in MS suggest against etiologic role of chronic venous insufficiency
Objectives: Chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency (CCSVI) has been suggested to be a possible cause of multiple sclerosis (MS). If the presumed mechanism of venous stasis–related parenchymal iron deposition and neurodegeneration were true, then upregulation of intrathecal iron transport proteins may be expected.
Methods: This was a cross-sectional (n = 1,408) and longitudinal (n = 29) study on CSF ferritin levels in patients with MS and a range of neurologic disorders.
Results: Pathologic (>12 ng/mL) CSF ferritin levels were observed in 4% of the control patients (median 4 ng/mL), 91% of patients with superficial siderosis (75 ng/mL), 73% of patients with a subarachnoid hemorrhage (59 ng/mL), 10% of patients with relapsing-remitting MS (5 ng/mL), 11% of patients with primary progressive MS (6 ng/mL), 23% of patients with secondary progressive MS (5 ng/mL), and 23% of patients with meningoencephalitis (5 ng/mL). In MS, there was no significant change of CSF ferritin levels over the 3-year follow-up period.
Conclusion: These data do not support an etiologic role for CCSVI-related parenchymal iron deposition in MS.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7415809Fourteen patients with acute cerebrovascular stroke or transient ischemic attacks (one case) were followed by serial determinations of CSF-ferritin during 2 weeks or more from onset of symptoms. After cerebral stroke all patients exhibited an increase of CSF-ferritin with peak levels between 4 and 6 days from admission. Those three patients in whom computed tomography showed cerebral bleeding had the highest peak CSF-ferritin was 28 +/- 11 arb U/l in the patients who had cerebral infarction without signs of bleeding. In seven patients CSF-ferritin returned to the control range after 2 weeks.
Dr. Zamboni talked about this in Bologna...how hemosiderin was a terrific measure for iron deposition in chronic, ongoing venous disease. Not for a one time hit, like a stroke. He measured the hemosiderin in urine in chronic venous disease and in pwMS, and found the correlation."The origin of increased leg iron stores is extravasation of red blood cells (erythrocytes) in conditions of significant venous stasis. Erythrocytes are degraded by the interstitial macrophages, with the released iron incorporated into ferritin. Over time, with increasing overload of iron, the structure of ferritin changes to haemosiderin.4-9 In 1988, Ackermann found a twenty-fold higher average concentration of iron in lower limbs affected by venous ulcers as compared to the upper arm of the same subjects.8 The phenomenon of leg haemosiderin deposits seems to be significant for the entire body, since this protein has been demonstrated in the urine of patients affected by CVD.9"
Iron in Chronic Brain Disorders: Imaging and Neurotherapeutic Implications (... Rohit Bakshi)cheerleader wrote:...Dr. Bakshi has just returned from a visit to the University of Ferrara, where he addressed how his ten years of research and Dr. Zamboni's research are coming together.
cheer
http://www.mssociety.org.uk/application ... 7&id=14320...However, the link between observed iron deposition and pathological processes underlying various diseases of the brain is not well understood.
hypothetical link:From the Italian press---Professor Rohit Bakshi of Harvard University came to Ferrara University to discuss how his decade long study of iron deposition in MS brains has now intertwined with Dr. Zamboni's research:
...
its conclusions have been come to intertwine with the results of tests carried out by the researcher and neurologist Bologna Ferrara Fabrizio Salvi on Ccsvi, which have established a hypothetical link between stenosis of the venous vessels in the brain iron accumulation and the onset of multiple sclerosis.
...
Right on!cah wrote:Sometimes I really feel sorry for those who do these pathetic attempts to disprove the CCSVI theory, being easily rebutted by laypersons with no other special skill than the ability to use google and read.
Sorry Cheer it was getting late for me when I posted those links. I researched comments made by proponenets of Zamboni's study and it looked to me as if they were saying that ferritin levels were one way to measure iron in the body and high levels would help confirm Zambonio's hypotethsis. I do not see where Zamboni has ever said ferretin levels in the CSF is not a good biomarker for ongoing chronic venuous disease. I do see where he states hemosiderin is an important biomarker but I can not see where he stated that ferretin levels are generally irrelevant.cheerleader wrote:Scorp--not sure what those links were in reference to. If you were linking to pages stating that ferritin is a good biomarker? Not sure. In any event...ferritin in CSF is a great biomarker for stroke and a one time infarction, but not for an ongoing, chronic venous disease. Here's why:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7415809Fourteen patients with acute cerebrovascular stroke or transient ischemic attacks (one case) were followed by serial determinations of CSF-ferritin during 2 weeks or more from onset of symptoms. After cerebral stroke all patients exhibited an increase of CSF-ferritin with peak levels between 4 and 6 days from admission. Those three patients in whom computed tomography showed cerebral bleeding had the highest peak CSF-ferritin was 28 +/- 11 arb U/l in the patients who had cerebral infarction without signs of bleeding. In seven patients CSF-ferritin returned to the control range after 2 weeks.
It's the build up of ferritin over time that created the hemosiderin. Here's Dr. Zamboni explaining why--
Dr. Zamboni talked about this in Bologna...how hemosiderin was a terrific measure for iron deposition in chronic, ongoing venous disease. Not for a one time hit, like a stroke. He measured the hemosiderin in urine in chronic venous disease and in pwMS, and found the correlation."The origin of increased leg iron stores is extravasation of red blood cells (erythrocytes) in conditions of significant venous stasis. Erythrocytes are degraded by the interstitial macrophages, with the released iron incorporated into ferritin. Over time, with increasing overload of iron, the structure of ferritin changes to haemosiderin.4-9 In 1988, Ackermann found a twenty-fold higher average concentration of iron in lower limbs affected by venous ulcers as compared to the upper arm of the same subjects.8 The phenomenon of leg haemosiderin deposits seems to be significant for the entire body, since this protein has been demonstrated in the urine of patients affected by CVD.9"
hope this explains it better-
cheer
Lyon, as far as I can judge this, Zamboni always wanted and was open to work with the neurologists. (See, for example, his interview with ccsvi.nl.) Wouldn't it be a good, sensible approach to seek the in-depth dialogue, learn each others point of view, and THEN question each others methodology? This just seems reasonable to me. I can't understand why they don't even want to talk to him before trying to replicate his research. Even if it wasn't more than some sort of "know your enemies".Lyon wrote: But I guess that's the point of this whole thing....questioning whether Zamboni is causing all this misinformation by NOT making the necessary information needed to replicate his findings easier to come by. Every other researcher historically has put that information in their initial study articles specifically to make replication attempts easier. Zamboni charges for lessons.
What's wrong with Zamboni charging money for his ultrasound detection method if he invented it? Like any other inventor, isn't he entitled to the fruits of his ingenuity? He might have been more clear, however, that using an ultrasound as a detection tool without proper training could lead to mixed results. He should have recommended a venogram or at least an MRV as detection tools for any replication studies. The margin of error associated with different methods of Doppler detection vs. venogram should have been established before it's use could be advised in replication studies.Lyon wrote: But I guess that's the point of this whole thing....questioning whether Zamboni is causing all this misinformation by NOT making the necessary information needed to replicate his findings easier to come by. Every other researcher historically has put that information in their initial study articles specifically to make replication attempts easier. Zamboni charges for lessons.