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Cece wrote:

scorpion wrote:If the case is that CCSVI is more prevalent later in MS and that CCSVI also shows up in other neurological diseases, it would seem that neurological diseases cause CCSVI insteads of the other way around.

Or that it is difficult to detect, particularly if the researcher is inexperienced with CCSVI, until it has worsened over time through the endothelial damage process as laid out by MegansMom.

A neurological disease cannot cause a congenital malformation.

Funny how you state that with such authority but you are absolutley sure that it can occur the other way around.

scorpion wrote:

Cece wrote:A neurological disease cannot cause a congenital malformation.

Funny how you state that with such authority but you are absolutley sure that it can occur the other way around.

An AVM (arteriovenous malformation) is one example of a congenital malformation that can cause neurological consequences.

Cece wrote:

scorpion wrote:

Cece wrote:A neurological disease cannot cause a congenital malformation.

Funny how you state that with such authority but you are absolutley sure that it can occur the other way around.

An AVM is but one example of a congenital malformation that can cause neurological consequences.

Oh alright. Lucky we called truce.

I have no pitchfork. Really I don't.

Cece wrote:I have no pitchfork. Really I don't.

Scorpion stinger coming your way!

scorpion wrote:

Cece wrote:I have no pitchfork. Really I don't.

Scorpion stinger coming your way!

definitely calling truce!

scorpion wrote:From the Buffalo study:
In this large MS cohort, the presence of CCSVI did suggest an association with disease progression, a finding that was not shown in Zamboni's smaller cohort, Zivadinov notes.

"the prevalence of CCSVI was 62.5 percent in MS patients, 25.9 percent in healthy controls, and 45 percent in people with other neurological disorders."

If the case is that CCSVI is more prevalent later in MS and that CCSVI also shows up in other neurological diseases, it would seem that neurological diseases cause CCSVI insteads of the other way around.

I didn't see this before reading the Beirut paper (maybe I just missed it), but I found this to be very interesting: "the prevalence of CCSVI... and 45 percent in people with other neurological disorders.

Scorpion, where did you find this quote? The Beirut paper references Dr. Zivadinov's presentation at the AAN meeting, btu I haven't been able to find a copy of that anywhere.

Cece I would say that the studies thus far show that congenital defects are actually quite common in the general population and no big deal. Stenosis only appears predominatly in those with LMS.

Cece wrote:

scorpion wrote:If the case is that CCSVI is more prevalent later in MS and that CCSVI also shows up in other neurological diseases, it would seem that neurological diseases cause CCSVI insteads of the other way around.

Or that it is difficult to detect, particularly if the researcher is inexperienced with CCSVI, until it has worsened over time through the endothelial damage process as laid out by MegansMom.

A neurological disease cannot cause a congenital malformation.

Perhaps another mechanism, or vector, causes the malformation (that might not be congenital) and the neurological disorder.

Johnson wrote:

Cece wrote:A neurological disease cannot cause a congenital malformation.

Perhaps another mechanism, or vector, causes the malformation (that might not be congenital) and the neurological disorder.

Ah, smart point. I look forward to future research casting light on the exact relationship between CCSVI and MS.

Johnson, I have wondered this myself. Perhaps something like low maternal vit d affects venomous development and the immune system

dreddk wrote:Johnson, I have wondered this myself. Perhaps something like low maternal vit d affects venomous (sic) development and the immune system

Well, being not an asp nor adder, I'm not sure of the venomous aspect (grin). Maybe scorpion could weigh in on that? (wicked grin)

But seriously; IUo'P reached a consensus on that idea (maternal vitamin D and congenital malformation of the venous system), but as far as I can tell, it is merely (an educated) conjecture- ie: no double-blinded randomized trials, etc. Using that metric, why would May babies be more representative in the "MS" population (I think that it is a valid statistic), with the first three months in utero being Summer and Fall months (when, ostensibly, there is a store of Vit, D in the fat cells of the mother)?

Then again, I was conceived in March (after the long Canadian winter) in my sun-phobic mother. My brother (no "MS") was a May baby. Perhaps there is a congenital link, but I am not convinced (I realize that my anonymous opinion carries little weight).

Ahh damn this iPhone spell check!

MarkW's point 1 said:
- Early MS was defined as subject with CIS or RRMS. CIS means the subject does not have MS, so must be excluded.
To be clear CIS does not have a 100% correlation with MS

dreddk wrote:
On point 1 the issue it raised is, if CCSVI caused MS, one would expect to see around 80% of CIS subjects exhibit CCSVI - which they don't. It suggests that either MS causes CCSVI, or they share a common cause.

CIS is NOT MS. A diagnosis of MS requires TWO relapses, CIS does not. Has anyone investigated the relationship between CCSVI and CIS ?? How do you know to expect an 80% correlation ?? I wouldn't.

When did Prof Zamboni say that CCSVI causes MS ???
Prof Zamboni postulated that CCSVI was possibly involved in the causes of MS. This is quite different in scientific terms.

This subject requires precision not guesswork, hence my four points having studied the whole of the paper:

Point 1 - Early MS was defined as subject with CIS or RRMS. CIS means the subject does not have MS, so must be excluded.
Point 2 - Late MS was RRMS but excluded SPMS so not late MS really.
Point 3 - 18 of 31 people with MS (usual criteria) have stenoses. This is 58% and is more than the Buffalo study.
Point 4 - All major veins in trunk were not inspected and checks for webs/scepta are not recorded if performed.

I conclude (from their data) that people with RRMS for more than 10 years should be tested for Extracranial Venous Stenosis urgently. The study found EVS in 12 of 13 subjects (92%) with 10y+ RRMS.

MarkW

dreddk posted:
I would say that the studies thus far show that congenital defects are actually quite common in the general population and no big deal.

MarkW says:
This is not a logical conclusion. MS is a multi-factorial disease of unknown cause. It is possible that congentital defects in veins are one of the factors in MS, in people with a susceptabilty to MS but not in the general population. I have not read any research to prove or dis-prove the idea that congentital defects in veins are one of the factors in MS.

dreddk posted:
Stenosis only appears predominatly in those with LMS.
MarkW replies:
The paper excludes secondary progressive MS from LMS. Stenoses are definitely found in SPMS. So logically the statement cannot be derived from this study.

MarkW