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From Helena Webb (fb), a growing number of scientists think that vitamin D is not helpful for autoimmune disease

From Helena Webb
Ingested vitamin D suppresses the innate immune system, and, in the short term, people often feel better as a result of taking it.
In the long term (10-20 years), the ingestion of this steriod allows the underlying disease to proliferate unhindered, ensuring the disease severity will progress, year by year.

NZer1 wrote:From Helena Webb
Ingested vitamin D suppresses the innate immune system, and, in the short term, people often feel better as a result of taking it.
In the long term (10-20 years), the ingestion of this steriod allows the underlying disease to proliferate unhindered, ensuring the disease severity will progress, year by year.

Nigel,
Before anyone stops taking Vitamin D, Dr. Trevor Marshall has a THEORY that 25(OH)D competitively binds to the Vitamin D Receptor displacing the active form of vitamin D, 1,25(OH)D based on a concentration gradient.

While this may turn out to be true, there is no evidence yet that it is. And there is, as I believe Dr. Veith notes at the end of the video, evidence to the contrary in humans with Type 1 Vitamin D Deficient Rickets who cannot produce 1,25(OH)D that this does not happen.

I would think that until Dr. Marshall's THEORY is proven, maintaining adequate levels of Vitamin D is warranted.

Squeakycat wrote:Nigel,
Before anyone stops taking Vitamin D, Dr. Trevor Marshall has a THEORY that 25(OH)D competitively binds to the Vitamin D Receptor displacing the active form of vitamin D, 1,25(OH)D based on a concentration gradient.

While this may turn out to be true, there is no evidence yet that it is. And there is, as I believe Dr. Veith notes at the end of the video, evidence to the contrary in humans with Type 1 Vitamin D Deficient Rickets who cannot produce 1,25(OH)D that this does not happen.

I would think that until Dr. Marshall's THEORY is proven, maintaining adequate levels of Vitamin D is warranted.

Nigel, just want to add that here is what Prof Shoenfeld who Dr. Marshall extensively references in his presentation has to say about Vitamin D in his most recent paper released this month:

Yehuda Shoenfeld, et alia: wrote:Adequate vitamin D status seems to be protective against musculoskeletal disorders (muscle weakness, falls, fractures), infectious diseases, autoimmune diseases, cardiovascular disease, type 1 and type 2 diabetes mellitus, several types of cancer, neurocognitive dysfunction and mental illness, and other diseases, as well as infertility and adverse pregnancy and birth outcomes. Vitamin D deficiency/insufficiency is associated with all-cause mortality.
Vitamin D effects on musculoskeletal health, immunity, autoimmunity, Autoimmunity reviews, 2013 Mar 28.

Well read Ed, I hoped there would be people who thought and didn't assume.

Next finding is that toxins and heavy metals bind to Vit D and don't allow it to metabolise. I am slowly working through the research on this and I found the link due to searching information on Leaky Gut Syndrome which we all have to some degree. At the same time as coming across the Vit D blocking by heavy metals, I also found references to Zinc blocking (Jimmylegs), and many of the list we have been considering such as calcium. Found the basic links by reading the down loadable for $3.99 http://bookstore.balboapress.com/Produc ... -Mine.aspx

It is quite complex and the research is spread all around so it will take some time to get it in readable/understandable linked form.

The way I found this was following the research on CFS/FM and toxin causation, then followed the symptom lists and found that most de-generative diseases are linked by the Gut Leakage and or toxins. The link goes deeper prior to Gut Leakage of course and expands and splits after the Gut Leakage so we are looking at multifaceted issues that do have an origin.

Will be in touch ;)
Nigel

Hello Bubs and other Newbies, welcome to the forum.
MarkW
PS I messed up m and n in units for D3 recently, so please excuse a and u.

MarkW wrote:I use iHerb.com in California, USA for supply of Vit D3 5,000iu as high strength are not available in UK and many countries in Europe. Many brands of D3 are stocked by iHerb (http://www.iherb.com/Vitamin-D-5000-IU).
My iHerb code- WAL561 -is now worth $10 off for anyone shopping at iHerb for the 1st time. You will save $10 off your 1st iHerb purchase of $40 or more! Or $5 off on smaller orders.
You may find D3 cheaper (please let me know if you do). iHerb ships to Europe, but remember you may have to pay local sales tax (VAT is 20% in UK).
I will not benefit from anyone using this code as all discounts I receive are passed on to pwMS at OMSTC http://www.omstc.org

Babs? Does Barbara Windsor also post on here too?

Thanks Mark i've just ordered some, without the discount ebay we work out roughly about the same price.

If you know any young person with EBV then check D3 level. MarkW

Mult Scler. 2013 Apr 2. [Epub ahead of print]
Epstein-Barr virus antibodies and vitamin D in prospective multiple sclerosis biobank samples.
Salzer J, Nyström M, Hallmans G, Stenlund H, Wadell G, Sundström P.
Source
Department of Pharmacology and Clinical Neuroscience, Section of Neurology at Umeå University, Sweden.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The antibody reactivity against Epstein-Barr nuclear antigen-1 (EBNA-1), and 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D) status have been associated with multiple sclerosis (MS) risk. Interaction between these two factors has been proposed.
OBJECTIVES:
The objective of this paper is to examine the association between antibody reactivity against EBNA-1 and five EBNA-1 domains, and the risk of MS, and to examine if these antibodies and 25(OH)D status interact regarding MS risk in prospectively collected blood samples.
METHODS:
Antibody reactivity and 25(OH)D levels were measured using ELISAs in n = 192 MS cases and n = 384 matched controls. The risk of MS was analysed using matched logistic regression. Interaction on the additive scale was assessed.
RESULTS:
The risk of MS increased across tertiles of antibody reactivity against EBNA-1, domain EBNA-1402-502, and domain EBNA-1385-420; p trends < 0.001. In young individuals (below median age at sampling, < 26.4 years), these associations were stronger, and 25(OH)D levels correlated inversely to antibody reactivity against EBNA-1 and the EBNA-1 domains. No statistical interaction was found.
CONCLUSIONS:
We confirm that increased antibody reactivity against EBNA-1 is a risk factor of MS. 25(OH)D status might influence the immune response towards Epstein-Barr virus in young subjects, and thereby modulate MS risk.
PMID: 23549431 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Contribution of vitamin D insufficiency to the pathogenesis of multiple sclerosis
Charles Pierrot-Deseilligny, Jean-Claude Souberbielle
Therapeutic Advances in Neurological Disorders
March 2013
Vol 6, Issue 2

Pierrot-Deseilligny and Souberbielle wrote:Current Practical Clinical Implications

The aim of this preventive supplementation is to raise a spontaneously low 25-OH-D serum level to the physiological range and then to maintain circulating vitamin D just above the 75–100 nmol/liter zone (see above) indefinitely.

This is an article well-worth printing out and handing to your neurologist or GP!

It provides a comprehensive overview of the science behind the link between Vitamin D status and MS and has concrete clinical recommendations.

Interestingly, in an earlier study, Pierrot-Deseilligny and Souberbielle found a plateau effect at a level of 110 nmol/L (44 ng/ml) with no benefit measured above this level

Ed I have seen articles that show Vitd3 and Magnesium plus Zinc and copper are necessary as a synthesis group to achieve some 325 genetic actions and that the Magnesium depletion and deficiency is impacting health. I think this is what Jimmylegs has also been showing.
The Vit D3 and Calcium levels interaction and the way VitD3 becomes a sensor for calcium load is also noted. I will find research and articles as I look into it more. I do see that research is sparse so it is often called a theory!
My searching began from a link I was sent;
http://drcarolyndean.com/2013/03/dean-o ... um-basics/

I think the most progressive understanding will come from the Vit D involvement of the mother whilst the foetus is developing its immune system and also the time until the immune system has developed in the early years. The imprint on the immune system functions by Vit D is very complex. The impact on gene switching in the earliest time of life is critical, imo. This factor is known of, yet it is not researched deeply and until it is the impact and interplay of Vit D in humans will remain assumptions. imo


Nigel

NZer1 wrote:Ed I have seen articles that show Vitd3 and Magnesium plus Zinc and copper are necessary as a synthesis group to achieve some 325 genetic actions and that the Magnesium depletion and deficiency is impacting health. I think this is what Jimmylegs has also been showing.
The Vit D3 and Calcium levels interaction and the way VitD3 becomes a sensor for calcium load is also noted. I will find research and articles as I look into it more. I do see that research is sparse so it is often called a theory!
My searching began from a link I was sent;
http://drcarolyndean.com/2013/03/dean-o ... um-basics/

I don't think we know whether we have deficiencies in these minerals. Once we establish that, there is the further question of whether we know that they are crucial in terms of the role of Vitamin D in MS and at what levels.

We do have some good evidence that calcium is required to have an effect in EAE mice, but I am not aware of any studies of this in humans and more particularly, pwMS.

We do know that high levels of vitamin D will suppress PTH levels which will decrease calcium absorption so there is a good reason to think that co-supplementation with calcium may well be necessary if the diet doesn't provide sufficient levels.

As a general principle, it makes sense to avoid any deficiency including magnesium, copper, zinc and calcium.

But to then link these specifically to vitamin D and MS I think requires further study.

Agreed Ed, the link to Calcium appears to be a reverse situation where there is an excess of calcium available and used and stored in the body and that causes a blocking effect to the Vit D absorption process I have to read more to understand and language this better.
The magnesium,zinc and copper also play a role in the absorption and production/synthesis of Vit D therefore making it available.
I think from recent discussions the Vit D link is more about the symptoms and their severity during the course of life and for PwMSers if the Vit D is low the symptom expression is often higher. The cause of MS is one part of the picture and management of the symptoms is possible but management of the disease is not, until it is known.
Vit D is a process factor in life across the board and how it acts in every individual is going to be different. Diet and Vit D go hand in hand because of the absorption of diet and the body needs to use the content of the diet to function, whether you are on the Equator or the extremes, with or without resources to balance the diet as you have explained to me using the tomato analogy. ;)


Nigel

NZer1 wrote:Agreed Ed, the link to Calcium appears to be a reverse situation where there is an excess of calcium available and used and stored in the body and that causes a blocking effect to the Vit D absorption process I have to read more to understand and language this better.
Nigel

Let's break this message down since you cover a lot of territory!

When taking Vitamin D, there is a risk of hypercalcemia, but there appears to also be a risk of hypocalcemia as a result of the effect Vitamin D has on parathyroid hormone, PTH.

Vitamin D facilitates the absorption of calcium so just taking vitamin D can cause calcium levels to rise.

But high doses of Vitamin D suppresses PTH which causes less calcium to be absorbed.

The risk either way are at very high levels of Vitamin D, not anything we are talking about here.

NZer1 wrote:The magnesium,zinc and copper also play a role in the absorption and production/synthesis of Vit D therefore making it available.
Nigel

Yes, they do play a role, but are they deficient? And do they play a special role in MS which might warrant taking them in conjunction with Vitamin D supplementation?

I simply think we don't yet have answers to these questions as far as magnesium, zinc, and copper.

That's in contrast with calcium where we know that higher doses of Vitamin D will suppress PTH which could lead to a deficiency of calcium, or if the Vitamin D levels are high, on a daily basis (the effect is different with pulsed dosing where you take a single high dose to cover your vitamin D levels for an extended period.)

What we still don't know about calcium is whether it needs to be supplemented in the case of MS and vitamin D supplementation. I don't see any good studies of this in humans with MS so I think it is still an unanswered question.

NZer1 wrote:I think from recent discussions the Vit D link is more about the symptoms and their severity during the course of life and for PwMSers if the Vit D is low the symptom expression is often higher. The cause of MS is one part of the picture and management of the symptoms is possible but management of the disease is not, until it is known.
Nigel

Not sure I completely understand what you are saying here.

There is good evidence that vitamin D insufficiency is linked as a causal factor in MS. Not the sole factor, but a factor.

There is limited evidence and a lot of clinical trials currently underway to see if supplementation will have an effect on symptoms and alter the course of the disease.

There are good reasons to think it will, but we need to wait for some of the clinical trials testing this proposition to be completed to see if it really can make a difference.

As Mark has pointed out so often here, while there may not be hard evidence yet, there is certainly enough and both the costs of vitamin D supplements and the risk both weigh in favor of maintaining adequate vitamin D levels, especially in pwMS.