Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:26 pm
Thank you, L!
I apologize for intruding into your thread!
I apologize for intruding into your thread!
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Hey, no problem.eric593 wrote:Thank you, L!
I apologize for intruding into your thread!
If any casual observers are reading this thread then just ignore Lyon, following his lead will get you nowhere!Lyon wrote:Understanding of what, a theory without the least bit of non-anecdotal evidence to support it which lots of people like to speak of as if it's the gospel?L wrote:We are discussing a theory that we believe in and trying our best to understand it, what we are doing develops our understanding to some degree. Wheras you, and Lyon, and others do nothing to help. It is just depressing to hear the same droning objections, over and over, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Why do it? Why not wait until you have something new to say?
As is often mentioned, it seems necessary to constantly repeat that the constant corrections by the skeptics isn't for the benefit of the "squeaky wheels" here at thisisms but instead is for the benefit of the naive who have wrongly heard that this is the place to come for "accurate" information about the theory of CCSVI and might otherwise believe the fairy dust spread around here shares some similarity with the truth.
That's misleading for the casual observer - there have been a few conformational, published papers.Lyon wrote: Understanding of what, a theory without the least bit of non-anecdotal evidence to support it which lots of people like to speak of as if it's the gospel?
I was wondering the same thing, Lyon.L wrote: Why do you repeat yourself over and over? Why not post in the Stem Cells forum and watch as no one disagrees? Why post, what purpose does it serve to repeat your opinion over and over that the CCSVI theory may have no basis?
Lots of people post who have had no improvements.. There is a sticky thread that is hugely popular. Noone pretends that improvements are guaranteed.scorpion wrote:We just see things different and probably will continue to do so. I think there are probably as many people who have not had improvements after the liberation procedure as those that claim to feel better but they just do not post. The ones that do post are told they have restenosed, have a blockage somewhere else, etc. so what it the point of posting their information? I believe this "pick and choose" approach has led to a skewed picture of the liberation procedure and of people's true experiences. In the end these "improvements" come down to possibly four reasons. 1. Placebo(and if I hear one more person claim of "not me" I will scream)2. It was the natural course of their disease. 3. They could do some of the tasks before the procedure they just never really tried. 4. The procedure works. In my opinion all of these options need to be considered and until number four is proven or the other three are disproved I will continue to be a "skeptic" of the procedure. Zamboni's original results did not make sense to me, the fact that reliably identifying CCSVI is a mystery makes no sense to me, and the fact the majority of the medical community has not bought into CCSVI makes no sense to me. You can say the skeptics bring everyone down but what really brings me down are people spending $50,000 for this procedure, people getting operated on five times to "clear their blockages, and people who report being in pain months after their surgeries. This makes me frustrated and angry. Sorry.
Darn it L, it was much easier to get upset with you when you had the previous icon!L wrote:Lots of people post who have had no improvements.. There is a sticky thread that is hugely popular. Noone pretends that improvements are guaranteed.scorpion wrote:We just see things different and probably will continue to do so. I think there are probably as many people who have not had improvements after the liberation procedure as those that claim to feel better but they just do not post. The ones that do post are told they have restenosed, have a blockage somewhere else, etc. so what it the point of posting their information? I believe this "pick and choose" approach has led to a skewed picture of the liberation procedure and of people's true experiences. In the end these "improvements" come down to possibly four reasons. 1. Placebo(and if I hear one more person claim of "not me" I will scream)2. It was the natural course of their disease. 3. They could do some of the tasks before the procedure they just never really tried. 4. The procedure works. In my opinion all of these options need to be considered and until number four is proven or the other three are disproved I will continue to be a "skeptic" of the procedure. Zamboni's original results did not make sense to me, the fact that reliably identifying CCSVI is a mystery makes no sense to me, and the fact the majority of the medical community has not bought into CCSVI makes no sense to me. You can say the skeptics bring everyone down but what really brings me down are people spending $50,000 for this procedure, people getting operated on five times to "clear their blockages, and people who report being in pain months after their surgeries. This makes me frustrated and angry. Sorry.
As for the scepticism, we know! We heard it before! Over and over and over again!
The majority of the "medical community" knows very little if anything about MS. So why would they buy in? Are they Interventional Radiologists or vascular specialists who can do anything about it? It seems A LOT of IRs and VS are buying in! It's the "neurologists" who aren't ... and they have a reason not to ... (this has all been documented in a hundred other arguments you skeptics have made, as if your opinion is the only opinion that people should listen to because you're just looking out for those who can't look out for themselves and reason both sides of an argument).scorpion wrote:We just see things different and probably will continue to do so. I think there are probably as many people who have not had improvements after the liberation procedure as those that claim to feel better but they just do not post. The ones that do post are told they have restenosed, have a blockage somewhere else, etc. so what it the point of posting their information? I believe this "pick and choose" approach has led to a skewed picture of the liberation procedure and of people's true experiences. In the end these "improvements" come down to possibly four reasons. 1. Placebo(and if I hear one more person claim of "not me" I will scream)2. It was the natural course of their disease. 3. They could do some of the tasks before the procedure they just never really tried. 4. The procedure works. In my opinion all of these options need to be considered and until number four is proven or the other three are disproved I will continue to be a "skeptic" of the procedure. Zamboni's original results did not make sense to me, the fact that reliably identifying CCSVI is a mystery makes no sense to me, and the fact the majority of the medical community has not bought into CCSVI makes no sense to me. You can say the skeptics bring everyone down but what really brings me down are people spending $50,000 for this procedure, people getting operated on five times to "clear their blockages, and people who report being in pain months after their surgeries. This makes me frustrated and angry. Sorry.
Bwahaha, that's funny.scorpion wrote:Darn it L, it was much easier to get upset with you when you had the previous icon!