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Venoruton is a pharmaceutical product like Daflon. It must is subjected to quality control testing, like Daflon. Supplements are not tested. So at least we are comparing apples to apples.

1eye wrote:Another supplement which (correct if wrong) is made from tree bark is Ginkgo Biloba. This one got mentioned by Dr. Zivadinov in Brooklyn. I wonder if I could get a sponsorship contract...

Thanks, 1eye, for telling us about Dr. Zivadinov's mention of Ginkgo Biloba which I didn't know was from tree bark--very interesting. I'm going to listen to his presentation in Brooklyn: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/chronic-c ... 17952.html Is this where he mentioned Ginkgo Biloba?

The active ingredient in Bayer aspirin is from a type of willow tree or willow plant which surprised me to learn. I'm still trying to find out which tree or plant, but I would bet a dollar that it comes from somewhere in Germany.

This world of supplements really is amazing to me. The more I learn, the more I want to learn.

Jugular wrote:The idea that there might be a pharmacological treatment for CCSVI is all so very exciting to me. So far IR's have lead the charge and so the focus has been on surgical intervention. For all the big pharma bashing that we like to do around here, keep in mind that 'Pharma' been fed misinformation from neurologists about the nature of MS and therefore their solutions have perhaps been for the wrong question. Put another way, with the possibilities that Daflon and Pycnogenol hold, perhaps they've been barking up the wrong tree.

Love your sense of humor!

Perhaps we are the pioneers looking for and hopefully finding early pharmacological treatments for CCSVI. Where is big pharma when we need them? Do you think big pharma is following CCSVI?

dania wrote:Venoruton is a pharmaceutical product like Daflon. It must is subjected to quality control testing, like Daflon. Supplements are not tested. So at least we are comparing apples to apples.

Thank you for this post, dania. What separates a supplement from a pharmaceutical? Is the difference between them that a pharmaceutical is composed of combining two or more ingredients and a supplement is a single ingredient? Thx!

Happy poet,
My first treatment was at Georgetown U in DC in July 2010. They promised a thorough study but, when they did about 30 procedures with minimal results, they abandoned the project (and apparently, the patients as well). The head MS neuro at the hospital said I don't have MS -- I have a vascular problem (wow, only 22 years and all those drugs later). The IR who did the procedure has left the hospital, and no one has ever contacted me about any followup. So I guess there's so reason to seek followup from Georgetown.

The second procedure was done elsewhere in April 2011. I've told the doctor that I have gotten almost no benefit, but he has not recommended any other followup other than a conversation when six months have past. I have mixed feelings about a followup US. If nothing is worse, why spend the money for another test? But since my azygous closed up after the first procedure, maybe it's not such a bad idea.

Even if I had an US, I would hesitate to have the second IR do another procedure since he said he looked everywhere (apparently a moving target) and he got five blockages open (70 - 95%). So if there was no improvement (and he doesn't use IVUS), does it make sense to have him do another since he says he's done everything he knows to do? IVUS seems like it's something I should pursue if I do another procedure, but that means traveling and lots of other hurdles (like will insurance pay for an out-of-state procedure).

So that leaves me thinking that my best option is to wait and hope that things will get better with Daflon, or at least not worse before the spring.

I really appreciate you suggestions. I'll think about them some more.

HappyPoet wrote:

dania wrote:Venoruton is a pharmaceutical product like Daflon. It must is subjected to quality control testing, like Daflon. Supplements are not tested. So at least we are comparing apples to apples.

Thank you for this post, dania. What separates a supplement from a pharmaceutical? Is the difference between them that a pharmaceutical is composed of combining two or more ingredients and a supplement is a single ingredient? Thx!

No. The "BIG" difference and I know as I was a lab tech in the quality control lab of Merck Frosst and Hoffmann La Roche for 12 years, is that, first the raw materials that make up the finished product are tested to make sure they meet ALL requirements.They are tested for purity. They are tested to see if they have unacceptable levels of contaminants such lead or microbes.Then the finished product is randomly sampled and then tested to insure "all" ingredients listed fall within the acceptable range and is safe for consumption. Also, Pharmaceuticals test the products way past the expiry date, such as 5 years after, to see what has happened to it. Pharmaceuticals are required by law that their products have what is on their labels and are safe. The only way to be certain that this is the case is to do quality control testing on every batch that is made. Supplements are NOT. So, you never know what you are taking with supplements. Some supplements contain little or none of the active ingredient. For example, an independent lab hired by the Boston Globe conducted a potency study of various brands of St. John's wort.[29] Of the seven national brands tested, only one contained 0.3% hypericin as claimed on all of the product labels. Another study found that nearly one-third of 25 major brands of supplements containing glucosamine and/or chondroitin (used for treating osteoarthritis) did not contain all of the ingredients listed on the label.
Yet another disturbing problem is contamination of herbal products with pesticides and other adulterants. For example, 8 of 22 brands of ginseng were found to contain high levels of specific pesticides, and some products contained significant levels of lead.[3"
It takes about 10 years of research until a product reaches the consumer.

Robnl wrote:Venoruton vs Daflon
http://ang.sagepub.com/content/57/2/131.short

I used Venoruton for 2 weeks, totally no effect.....but the link shows that it should be more effective than daflon...

Good find! From what I can read, they both have similar modes of action and should do the same thing. In what circumstances were you taking it?

I went for a 2.5 km walk tonight without my brace. Footdrop improvement was meh, but I'm picking my leg up much better and my knee is much stronger, so the walk was easier and I shaved minutes off my time. To somewhat quantify my knee stability strength improvement, since my angio (before angio - forgetaboutit) the only way I could a semblance of a standing calve raise, was by locking my right knee all the way back. Now I can hold it in a slightly flexed position while doing a dual calve raise. It may seem like a small thing, but it has huge implications in how well I walk.

Go team Daflon.

HappyPoet wrote:

Thank you also for sharing your experience with Venoruton. Perhaps you might give Daflon a try to see if you feel any effects quickly like Jugular and Rosegirl felt. I'm still waiting for my Daflon to arrive. If it doesn't help, I'll try other supplements--it's my only choice left since I can't afford $10,000 for what would be my third procedure (Medicare has stopped paying for CCSVI procedures for MS patients). I must find another way to help stop/slow my IJVs from closing, and so far, Daflon is the only supplement shown to affect veins.

Hmmm, i'll wait for the experiences of HappyPoet If there are positive effects, i'll try Daflon also...

dania, Wow!

Getting the straight scoop from someone directly involved in the pharmaceutical industry is terrific info for us to have. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

I have another question: How can a person recognize from the labels which product is a pharmaceutical versus a supplement? I imagine many a supplement might want to try to look like a highly tested pharmaceutical, and I don't want to be duped into buying a supplement if a similar pharmaceutical product is available. Thx!

Robnl wrote:HappyPoet wrote:

Thank you also for sharing your experience with Venoruton. Perhaps you might give Daflon a try to see if you feel any effects quickly like Jugular and Rosegirl felt. I'm still waiting for my Daflon to arrive. If it doesn't help, I'll try other supplements--it's my only choice left since I can't afford $10,000 for what would be my third procedure (Medicare has stopped paying for CCSVI procedures for MS patients). I must find another way to help stop/slow my IJVs from closing, and so far, Daflon is the only supplement shown to affect veins.

Hmmm, i'll wait for the experiences of HappyPoet If there are positive effects, i'll try Daflon also...

Surely you jest about your decision of whether or not to take Daflon based on just my experience, yes? After all, I would crumble under the weight of such responsibility, and no one wants me to crumble, right?

HappyPoet wrote:dania, Wow!

Getting the straight scoop from someone directly involved in the pharmaceutical industry is terrific info for us to have. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

I have another question: How can a person recognize from the labels which product is a pharmaceutical versus a supplement? I imagine many a supplement might want to try to look like a highly tested pharmaceutical, and I don't want to be duped into buying a supplement if a similar pharmaceutical product is available. Thx!

All prescription medication goes through quality control testing. Really anything made by a pharmaceutical company will be tested, vitamins and over the counter medication.
What Are Supplements?

Supplements, also known as Dietary Supplements should not to be confused with other food or drug products.

The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) together with similar national authorities throughout the world have introduced legal definitions and regulations for the production and marketing of Supplements that must be observed.

In the US the Dietary Supplement Health And Education Act of 1994 gives the following definition:-

The term Dietary Supplement means a product (other than tobacco) intended to supplement the diet that bears or contains one or more of the following dietary ingredients:

(A) A vitamin. (B) A mineral. (C) An herb or other botanical. (D) An amino acid. (E) A dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the dietary intake. (F) A concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of any ingredient described in clause (A), (B), (C), (D), or (E).

Supplements are intended to be taken by mouth in the form of a pill, capsule, tablet or liquid.

The product should be clearly labeled on the front panel as being a dietary product.

Unlike the labels of drug manufacturers that may claim their product will diagnose, cure, alleviate, mitigate, treat or prevent a disease, the labels of dietary supplements may only feature that the product has health benefits, nutrient content claims or structure/function claims.

This legislation has been introduced in the US to ensure that manufacturers and distributors do not mislead the public with false or misleading information.

It is a sensible precaution to check that the labels of any supplement packaging broadly comply with the FDA requirements irrespective of the country of origin or intended purchase.

Supplements. Who should take them and why. In the United States studies have shown that roughly half the adult population take a daily multivitamin/mineral supplement. There has also been some debate over whether this is a safe and effective or a harmful practice with inconclusive results.

Many medical practitioners take the view that a daily regime of pharmaceutical grade multivitamins can at worst do no harm and can be a benefit in supplementing the vitamins we should be absorbing from a healthy diet.

I would like to point out that supplements can cause problems. I sent a friend to see his doctor as the skin on the soles of his feet were cracking very badly. I told him this is not normal. He saw his dermatologist and discovered he was taking mineral supplements. The doctor told him to stop them as it was cause him toxicity. After 2 weeks his feet returned to being normal.
I myself had a reaction to supplements. I had a rash, in various parts of my body and swelling in my hands. The dermatologist said it looked like a drug allergy. Asked if I was taking any new medication. I said no. My symptoms became worse and he asked me again are you taking any new medication. I said no and then he asked me "anything new, anything at all". I said, oh.... I started taking some supplements. He said stop them. I did and within 10 days everything returned to normal.

Please disregard this post - irrelevant. I'm sorry.

Hi everyone,
After taking Daflon 500 from Servier for a week I can report feeling subtle changes for the better. My stance when walking is straighter with minor increase in stamina.
Walking for me means less than 150 ft. My last CCSVI intervention (second) was last May with no great liberation feeling as opposed to the Oct 2010 where I felt instantly more vigourous walking especially on uneven surfaces.
Nevertheless Daflon gives me so far small improvements I hope gets better with time.

Just a small report amongst future ones.

Take Care All

NormB
(btw Dania I live appprox 1 hour west of you on the Ontario side)

NormB, what town/city do you live in?

dania wrote: I had a rash, in various parts of my body and swelling in my hands. The dermatologist said it looked like a drug allergy. Asked if I was taking any new medication. I said no. My symptoms became worse and he asked me again are you taking any new medication. I said no and then he asked me "anything new, anything at all". I said, oh.... I started taking some supplements. He said stop them. I did and within 10 days everything returned to normal.

I've had similar problems when taking large doses of Vitamin D. It caused a skin rash similar to rosacea. But it took months for it to go away after I stopped taking Vitamin D.