This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

NZer1 wrote:Thanks Dr A,
This is where I get confused when Dr.s and Neuro's talk about the pain experiences in MS. It seems from what I understand, the damage done to the nerves within the brain, the axons and the nerve ends in 'MS' are what causes the pain sensation.

If the axon is damaged how does one experience pain? I think this explanation lacks any credibility.

If that is the case are there adjustments that would help?

Most adjustment therapy is geared to address the symptom which is secondary rather than the primary cause and as such it is utterly futile.

I get told things like the nerves aren't sending correct signals so the mind interprets this as pain.

Nonsense

There doesn't seem to be anyway that an adjustment would help with type of pain.

I can see that identifying what is causing the pain by trying adjustment would be of use, the challenge as you say is whether the adjustment is correct for the problem and or the Practitioner is competent in the required adjustment.

The ultimate dilemma.

Is there testing of nerves that is appropriate to give an understanding of nerve conduction that will give indication of outcome rather than a hit and miss adjustment process, that tends to have repeats and ongoing expense?

I think this business of testing the axons is barking up the wrong tree and if discovered no adjustment is going to be apt.

How do we find out what is going on in MS so that we can have quality of life?

My heart aches that I should open a pandoras box right around the world and be too far to help many people. It needs the personal consultation which is presently not possible.

The other challenge is the financial cost of all these experiments as they will be like the icicle theory of MS we spoke of before. I assume that if we are in the pigeon hole of 'MS' or similar diseases we are in the too hard basket or the basket the Government National Health Help bypasses.

So we have to finance this experiment by selling everything we have, with no guarantee of benefit, if you get my drift?

Regards Nigel

If medicine was not based around grand theft it would be easy for governments to afford it. Can you imagine $40,000 per year per patient. Enough to bankrupt the richest countries.

Dr. A,
you might like to read Norman Doidge's book "The Brain That Changes Itself"
ISBN 978-1-921215-82-7

It gives a very good understanding of the nervous system and Pain, I believe it will help you in your practice as well.

Regards Nigel

NZer1 wrote:Dr. A,
you might like to read Norman Doidge's book "The Brain That Changes Itself"
ISBN 978-1-921215-82-7

It gives a very good understanding of the nervous system and Pain, I believe it will help you in your practice as well.

Regards Nigel

The book defines the amazing plasticity of the brain and yet such plasticity is unavailable to MSers!

Did you read the book?

Amir wrote:The book defines the amazing plasticity of the brain and yet such plasticity is unavailable to MSers!

OK, I admit I have not read the book, but have seen many refer to it here. Is there a section explaining that plasticity is not available to MS?

Amir wrote:If the axon is damaged how does one experience pain? I think this explanation lacks any credibility.

http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/3/619.abstract Peripheral in this case.

Amir has left for America for the holidays to be with his family. I have no doubt he'll be on his laptop and posting within a matter of hours after landing as he seems to be a workaholic.

Amir wrote:

NZer1 wrote:Dr. A,
you might like to read Norman Doidge's book "The Brain That Changes Itself"
ISBN 978-1-921215-82-7

It gives a very good understanding of the nervous system and Pain, I believe it will help you in your practice as well.

Regards Nigel

The book defines the amazing plasticity of the brain and yet such plasticity is unavailable to MSers!

It is also likely to be an assumption that MSers don't have what everyone else has. The form of episodic MS, RRMS is a case in point!
Nerve regeneration/repair in MS is well documented.
The processing/distribution center for nerve transmission in MS is often sited as having lesions and one would tend to think that in itself would indicate that adjustment would not be of help in demylinating disease or degenerative diseases.
If there was an issue due to posture from a disease like MS one would think that there is window of opportunity for correction if the patient has the strength to maintain corrective assistance.
If there is a separate posture issue to their MS there would also be opportunity for help.

It seems that the information is out there, what is missing is the 'collection' of this information for MS people so that quality of life help can be given.
Unfortunately there are too many people wanting to make money and too many with no integrity.

Merry Xmas,
Nigel

CureOrBust wrote:

Amir wrote:The book defines the amazing plasticity of the brain and yet such plasticity is unavailable to MSers!

OK, I admit I have not read the book, but have seen many refer to it here. Is there a section explaining that plasticity is not available to MS?

Amir wrote:If the axon is damaged how does one experience pain? I think this explanation lacks any credibility.

http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/3/619.abstract Peripheral in this case.

I think there are far easier ways of fixing 'neuropathic' pain than this little understood hypothesis with half baked drug interventions.
I shall be reading this book during the holidays!

Dr. A,
Pleased to hear you are willing to have a read.

I agree with the anti drug approach, I am one for understanding the problem before trying to fix it.

MS is not going to be an easy one to understand as an outsider and 'we' have been looking at this for some years.

There will be information we can provide about our situation, all you need to do is ask.

Seasons greetings and safe travels, what part of the US are you from?
Nigel

NZer1 wrote:

Amir wrote:

NZer1 wrote:Dr. A,
you might like to read Norman Doidge's book "The Brain That Changes Itself"
ISBN 978-1-921215-82-7

It is also likely to be an assumption that MSers don't have what everyone else has. The form of episodic MS, RRMS is a case in point!
Nerve regeneration/repair in MS is well documented.

Actually you will be intrigued to realise that MSers have exactly what everyone else has but mostly the correct care has been totally absent.

The processing/distribution center for nerve transmission in MS is often sited as having lesions and one would tend to think that in itself would indicate that adjustment would not be of help in demylinating disease or degenerative diseases.

If one was to follow 'the book' on the plasticity of the brain it means that the brain is able to fulfil its' functions by recruiting other areas of the brain. This is in direct conflict with your observation.

If there was an issue due to posture from a disease like MS one would think that there is window of opportunity for correction if the patient has the strength to maintain corrective assistance.
If there is a separate posture issue to their MS there would also be opportunity for help.

Well observed

It seems that the information is out there, what is missing is the 'collection' of this information for MS people so that quality of life help can be given.

I must get cracking and complete MY book!

Unfortunately there are too many people wanting to make money and too many with no integrity.

Merry Xmas,
Nigel

Merry Xmas to you all too. May 2012 bring a great deal of knowledge, relief from 'neuropathic pain' and a more comprehensive management of MS for you all and that MS will no longer be a myth.

NZer1 wrote:Dr. A,

Seasons greetings and safe travels, what part of the US are you from?
Nigel

I am a resident of good old England for most of my adult life. My children live in the USA. Two of my twin sons are dental surgeons. They are also heavy metal guitarists!
You can listen to Simon Amir here (Turn down the volume first):


and Jamie Amir who is a highly qualified implant surgeon having spent 11 years in university:



They are all in Florida where I am spending the holidays but never away from you guys.

hi dr. amir,

your sons music is not my cup of tea. "i'm old school". but, never the less his talent and looks can't be denied. i'm sure you are very proud.

enjoy!!

blossom wrote:hi dr. amir,

your sons music is not my cup of tea. "i'm old school". but, never the less his talent and looks can't be denied. i'm sure you are very proud.

enjoy!!

I am back after spending a wonderful time with my very grown up kids and their music (and dentistry)

I have a question to ask and I shall be grateful for as many answers as possible. I know many of you were diagnosed with MS after you presented with Optic Neuritis. This is the first time you were told that you have MS. Others may have been diagnosed with some other symptom.

My experience with patients has been that they had many other symptoms before MS was diagnosed. Often these were attributed to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. In others with isolated symptoms like headaches or migraines may have gone unreported or you have not been able to connect that this may have been your very first symptom which may finally have led to MS.

The question is what was your very first symptom and at what age? Were you ever described as suffering from CFS and then when an MRI of your head was taken you were finally told that you actually have MS. It may have been just neck pain or back pain at a much younger age. So please wite in. You may be a reader who has never written anything on these forums. It will not be very difficult to jot just one line down. The contributors here are perhaps the pioneers of a process which is finally going to put an end to this miserable illness.

For example, You could write that you had headaches at age 12, neck pains at age 13, IBS at 16, Chronic Fatigue at age 17, backache at age 20 and then diagnosed with CFS at age 24. Finally diagnosed with MS after an MRI scan with 6 plaques in the brain at age 42.
If you do not want to write personal details here you can message me directly.
amir2647@msn.com

Emma:-

Age 17 - pins and needles from waist down, on a bad day partial paralysis, on a good day able to walk normally. X-rays taken - Diagnosed "back problems" as extra lumber present. Symptoms went after 6 months.

Age 18 - Eyesight started to deteriorate. Glasses prescribed.

Over the next 6 years various loss of sensations in extremeties - no diagnosis given

Age 22 - Four wisdom teeth extracted.

Age 23 - loss of balance - loss of eyesight focus (hazy vision) - severe headaches - Diagnosed "virus" no tests required.

Two days later symptoms worsened re visited doctor for second opinion (different Doctor!). Suspected brain tumor, sent for MRI scan which proved clear.

Two weeks later - admitted to hospital for 7 days for IV steriods to help eyesight (still no diagnosis at this point).

Two weeks later, right side of body paralysed - lumber puncture (twice) plus Evoked Potential test.

3 Months passed after test at which point a diagnosis of RRMS provided. Optic Neuritis diagnosis follwed that of the MS diagnosis after a period of blindness to left eye.

For my husband: I recognize certain symptoms now that I passed off as nothing when we met (20 years ago). His first definitive sign was falling over at 36, due to weak left leg. Since then lots of things have gotten worse, but mainly weakness In legs and bladder/ bowel issues. He also had restless legs, especially at night, and was more quick to cry, not sure how to put that. He didn't cry a lot, just was easily moved. Anyhow, progressively worse, less feeling in hands now age 42.