This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

blossom wrote:i'm a healthy 65 yr. old just can't move very well. the age 50 is to me looking very young.

I am happy to discuss the merits of your post, but it gets a little sticky to be advising you personally on the forum, without a formal consultation.

no problem.

I have only quickly scanned through all the pages of this thread, so I apologise if I missed a link to an external case. My question is, does anyone have any images (ie X-rays or such) showing the slight jaw misalignments that we are talking about? even better would be a before sand after?

Dr. A,
I have been pondering what you are offering and what I wonder most of all is, is it the Atlas adjustment that is the primary focus? Getting that sorted and then working on other issues?

I have been trying to get my head around what is the most benefit for folks, the atlas or the jaw?

Regards Nigel

CureOrBust wrote:I have only quickly scanned through all the pages of this thread, so I apologise if I missed a link to an external case. My question is, does anyone have any images (ie X-rays or such) showing the slight jaw misalignments that we are talking about? even better would be a before sand after?

This information is widely available through a search engine. Many surgeons use MRI scan of the jaw joint. On enquiring from the chief of radiology at an imaging Centre once I was reliably informed that he "does not see any change in before and after images" I therefore avoid these very expensive images. The problem is of a dynamic nature and has to be evaluated ongoingly which obviously precludes radiography. A change in patient symptoms is a key to realising whether the right movement is being carried out.

NZer1 wrote:Dr. A,
I have been pondering what you are offering and what I wonder most of all is, is it the Atlas adjustment that is the primary focus? Getting that sorted and then working on other issues?

I have been trying to get my head around what is the most benefit for folks, the atlas or the jaw?

Regards Nigel

Nigel

Some patients can have the Atlas corrected straight away. Others need a jaw correction first as explained in my article on Page 1. Experience has shown that if I correct the Atlas where the jaw is seriously out of sync the patient often experiences newer pains or lower quality of benefit. Therefore I rarely correct the Atlas first. There are two more threads posted by Emma and Cindy. In both cases I have not corrected the Atlas first but shall do so after a month or so. You can follow their thread.

Have a great Christmas

P.S. I am on page 125 of Dr Sclafanis thread which has given me a great insight into the subject. The patient input has been phenomenal. I have over 50,000 words of notes! You appear to take a very active part. Thanks for that. I do not think Dr Sclafani or I would be able to make such rapid progress without such contributions from patients.

Amir wrote:

CureOrBust wrote:... does anyone have any images (ie X-rays or such) showing the slight jaw misalignments that we are talking about? even better would be a before and after?

This information is widely available through a search engine.

Any hints on search terms? Most I tried were a dead end, or lead back to here.

Amir wrote:I was reliably informed that he "does not see any change in before and after images" I therefore avoid these very expensive images. The problem is of a dynamic nature and has to be evaluated ongoingly which obviously precludes radiography.

Amir wrote:... and after uploading other photographic and radiological records I shall be able to give a more individualised reply.

http://www.thisisms.com/forum/chronic-c ... ml#p182512
What images do you request as part of your investigations?

Amir, feel free to post images of Emma's X-Rays if it helps expalin the answer to this question, even to a non medically trained person such as myself you could see how out of alignment they are.

Or email them to me and I'll post them.

NZer1 wrote:Dr. A,
I have been pondering what you are offering and what I wonder most of all is, is it the Atlas adjustment that is the primary focus? Getting that sorted and then working on other issues?

I have been trying to get my head around what is the most benefit for folks, the atlas or the jaw?

Regards Nigel

Don't for one moment imagine there is a "one size fits all" process of adjustments in what Amir is offering. There isn't a regimented set of steps to follow to produce a prescribed result. Of course the ultimate goal is a removal or relief of MS Symptoms but how you get there can be subtley different in each and every patient.

Each and every person is a little different, sure "MS" sufferers all have symptoms displaying a certain similarity (in fact it's why they are labelled with the tag "MS") but it's said so many times that no two people have exactly the same symptoms, just similar. So the same approach is taken with the treatment, not exactly the same but similar. In fact that's part of the danger of posting exact details of appliances and adjustments for all to read on here. The danger is someone will print it out - take it to their local dentists/orthodontist/dental surgeon and ask them if they can replicate it. They probably can, but having replicated it they have no idea how or where to make adjustments and may end up doing moare harm than good.

In Emma's case Amir has taken a look at her jaw position and teeth and determined that not only would atlas correction probably not be any help immediately, it may even be detrimental. Emma requires an underlining jaw misalginement to be corrected first, once this has been done and the jaw is being held in a steady stable position will upper spinal adjustments be considered.

At this point (as Amir is still trawling through the vast thread that is Dr Sclafani's) we will consider how this is related to CCSVI, as we are pretty sure there is a relationship (and coincidentally so are the Edinburgh health clinic who are pursuing their own enquiries on the treatment type that Amir offers after independently arriving at the same link).

We are in the unique positon of having two posters on thisisms undertaking treatment (and I'm trying to convince more I've met to post on here) feel free to ask us questions, what's been done, how it's effecting each patient physically etc. It's a chance in a million and that's why we're all here ultimately.

EJC wrote:

NZer1 wrote:Dr. A,
I have been pondering what you are offering and what I wonder most of all is, is it the Atlas adjustment that is the primary focus? Getting that sorted and then working on other issues?

I have been trying to get my head around what is the most benefit for folks, the atlas or the jaw?

Regards Nigel

Don't for one moment imagine there is a "one size fits all" process of adjustments in what Amir is offering. There isn't a regimented set of steps to follow to produce a prescribed result. Of course the ultimate goal is a removal or relief of MS Symptoms but how you get there can be subtley different in each and every patient.

Each and every person is a little different, sure "MS" sufferers all have symptoms displaying a certain similarity (in fact it's why they are labelled with the tag "MS") but it's said so many times that no two people have exactly the same symptoms, just similar. So the same approach is taken with the treatment, not exactly the same but similar. In fact that's part of the danger of posting exact details of appliances and adjustments for all to read on here. The danger is someone will print it out - take it to their local dentists/orthodontist/dental surgeon and ask them if they can replicate it. They probably can, but having replicated it they have no idea how or where to make adjustments and may end up doing moare harm than good.

In Emma's case Amir has taken a look at her jaw position and teeth and determined that not only would atlas correction probably not be any help immediately, it may even be detrimental. Emma requires an underlining jaw misalginement to be corrected first, once this has been done and the jaw is being held in a steady stable position will upper spinal adjustments be considered.

At this point (as Amir is still trawling through the vast thread that is Dr Sclafani's) we will consider how this is related to CCSVI, as we are pretty sure there is a relationship (and coincidentally so are the Edinburgh health clinic who are pursuing their own enquiries on the treatment type that Amir offers after independently arriving at the same link).

We are in the unique positon of having two posters on thisisms undertaking treatment (and I'm trying to convince more I've met to post on here) feel free to ask us questions, what's been done, how it's effecting each patient physically etc. It's a chance in a million and that's why we're all here ultimately.

so by this rational if i have had the atlas adjusted (which i did) and just now am seeing a dr for TMD have I put the cart before the horse? Should I expect to go downhill instead of see improvements!! UGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

After listening carefully to what is being said, I also have to ask where placebo comes into this method.

If you cannot tell/see what you have done, if you cannot say which should come first atlas or jaw, and there is no commonality in outcome, is there going to be support for what you are doing from the medical profession let alone the paying public?

Just an observation?

Regards Nigel

THEGREEKFROMTHED wrote: so by this rational if i have had the atlas adjusted (which i did) and just now am seeing a dr for TMD have I put the cart before the horse? Should I expect to go downhill instead of see improvements!! UGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not necessarily as each person is different, but I would be relcutant to see anyone of the chiropractor persuasion (especially those the "crack" things into place) before I'd had my jaw looked at.

As I explained, Emma's case is actually quite extreme and beyond what Dr Amir would expect to see as "normal".

NZer1 wrote:After listening carefully to what is being said, I also have to ask where placebo comes into this method.

If you cannot tell/see what you have done, if you cannot say which should come first atlas or jaw, and there is no commonality in outcome, is there going to be support for what you are doing from the medical profession let alone the paying public?

Just an observation?

Regards Nigel

What I (and Amir) explained is there is no commonality in treatment, not that there is no commonality in outcome (how did you arrive at that?)

I am the paying public and I am chosing to post the outcome of Emma's treatment in real time, without bias (other than wishing to see my partner have a better life).

In all my 42 years I have never seen placebo stop neuralgic pain in it's tracks in less than five minutes.

I have no axe to grind, I am not paid or in any way or sponsored by Amir, I like the man, I like his irreverant attitude to the establishment and I like the way he treat his patients. I have encouraged him to frequent these forums in an attempt to allow him to expand his understanding and ideas as well as share his ideas with other sufferers. He has learned a great deal about CCSVI, especially from Dr Sclafani's thread and is now integrating what he understands with his own work into the evolving standard of CCSVI to see where he can help.

Is there going to be support from the medical profession? hmmm, this is actually the most pressing of questions.

If I provided a theory which not only debunks your entire lifes work, but also everything that modern medicine understands about the collection of symptoms currently refered to as MS, how keen do you think the "medical profession" would be to back the theory?

Personally I'm less bothered by what the "medical profession" think and I'm more interested in what works. If more of us thought that way we'd probably find progress a darn sight quicker.

THEGREEKFROMTHED wrote:

EJC wrote:

NZer1 wrote:Dr. A,

so by this rational if i have had the atlas adjusted (which i did) and just now am seeing a dr for TMD have I put the cart before the horse? Should I expect to go downhill instead of see improvements!! UGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are various specialists adjusting the Atlas. There is the Atlas Orthogonal method, the Atlasprofilax method and there is the Atlasbalance method. The practitioners of these have spent a great deal of time, effort and money to learn these techniques. The same goes for TMD specialists who have probably spent a lifetime acquiring such speciality. Also every specialist develops his own brand of what works best for him. Reading Dr Sclafani's thread one can see how much sweat goes into being able to deliver quality care, how many frustrations and how much dedication so that at the point of delivery he is able to do the best. We are all lucky that he has shared the evolution of his methods with all of us and we are all richer in our knowledge of the subject.

I do not know any TMD specialist also specialising in the adjustment of the Atlas. I have been lucky to acquire both disciplines and have developed my own brand of care. I cannot make anyone else wrong the way they have chosen to provide care especially if I do not know them or do not know the quality of their care. All I can say is that the subject is extremely complex and after having spent a lifetime perfecting my techniques I still consider myself to be a student and spend many many hours everyday learning.

To give advice on individual cases without having the facility of a full consultation is unfair not only for the patient but also the practitioners that you have entrusted with your care.

.
All I can say is that the subject is extremely complex and after having spent a lifetime perfecting my techniques I still consider myself to be a student and spend many many hours everyday learning.

To give advice on individual cases without having the facility of a full consultation is unfair not only for the patient but also the practitioners that you have entrusted with your care.[/quote
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Dr A,
what you are doing is definately specific and original. I am seeing a nucca chiro (http://www.nuccainfo.com/index.html)
which by the way if anyone goes PLEASE tell them George referred you. Believe me it will save a lot of explanation... The atlas in my neck, like the rest of my life, appears to be twisted. The neck and head are twisted to the right, not tilted, twisted...weird case. Then, after about three adjusments i headed over to a TMD specialist (http://www.michiganheadandneck.com/) again if you go tell them George sent you, where I showed Dr Kline what little you had published here. He is a very passionate guy and and outside of the box thinker. On exam and xray no doubt my jaw is out of alignment, has been since i took a shoulder to the jaw in a basketball game in the 8th grade. I simply have clicking in the left side, where the xray shows that additional space in the drum or joint area, and our plan is to wear a top and bottom appliance for a while to see if anything does anything! Is this what you do? Probably not, but just like CCSVI where i was one of Sclafanis first 10 patients, I have to try or die. It doesnt pay to be the pioneer, but time isnt on my side so meanwhile we took impressions and I will wear the appliances day and night just for shits and giggles. Hey I have tried so many thing, conservative and radical, so what the hell can it hurt. Maybe putting a little space in the jaw might open up a specific kanutin valve or some damn thing and my blood will flow better. Only God knows Its not what Emma is privelege to, but then again you are a long long way away and sitting on my ass isnt going to make me any better. In fact it just ramps up the spascicity. Wish me luck for trying...

When you finally get your protocol up and running then I will give it a try but until then I enjoy confusing Dr's and bringing radical theories to them. I actually think they enjoy it. In fact Dr Kline was cool as hell. Does he know what you know Dr A? Maybe in a round about way, but if COlumbus wouldnt have jumped his ass in that boat things would be a lot different. No moss growing under THEGREEKFROMTHED's posterior....Gotta try the other side is just too wonderful....