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Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:52 pm
by Cece
http://www.jvir.org/article/S1051-0443( ... 0/fulltext
Review of Venous Anatomy for Venographic Interpretation in Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency
A good reference from Dr. Siskin's group.
Taal et al (18) found clinically significant anatomic abnormalities including stenoses and/or angulation in the central veins (IJVs, brachiocephalic veins, and SVC) in as many as 30% of patients undergoing dialysis with no history of previous catheter placement. The use of CT scans to measure the diameters of the right and left IJV showed that 80.5% of individuals have a smaller IJV on the left (5, 19). The diameter of the IJV is independent of age and sex (20).
There are many factors that can determine the size of the IJV. These include hydration status, cardiac status and intrathoracic pressure, head position, and anatomic compression by adjacent structures in the neck (21). Certain positional maneuvers can maximize the cross-sectional area of the IJV, including head rotation to the contralateral side (Fig 3) and placement of the patient in the Trendelenburg position (22, 23). In fact, head rotation to the ipsilateral side causes a significant reduction of the mean diameter of the ipsilateral IJV, even approaching complete occlusion (23). The size of the IJV can be further complicated by the occurrence of jugular phlebectasia, which is defined as focal dilation of the inferior jugular bulb, or the area of the vein located inferior to the valves (21). This is more common on the right than the left because intrathoracic pressure may be more directly transmitted to the right side than to the left, possibly because of the shorter length of the right brachiocephalic vein and the possible presence of valves in the left brachiocephalic vein (24).
Fig 3 shows the effect of head rotation, where the stenosis is still visible in both positions but the vein has more flow when rotated contralaterally. (Ipsilateral is same side, contralateral is the other side. Looking to the left would maximize your right jugular, looking to the right would minimize your right jugular.)
I would have liked to have seen the renal and iliac veins included too.
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:18 pm
by MrSuccess
... and anatomic compression by adjacent structures in the neck .....
... and anatomic compression by adjacent structures in the neck ......
... and anatomic compression by adjacent structures in the neck .......
in plain speak ..... the veins in your neck can be affected by any change in the normal positioning of muscle , bone , tissue .
MrSuccess has read numerous opinions offered by well respected medical professionals that link MS to TRAUMA.
CCSVI has now provided that missing piece of that puzzle.
TRAUMA >>>>>> INFLAMMATION >>>>>>> CCSVI >>>>>>> MS
MrSuccess
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:34 pm
by EJC
MrSuccess wrote:
TRAUMA >>>>>> INFLAMMATION >>>>>>> CCSVI >>>>>>> MS
MrSuccess
I'm barking up that tree also.
This bit caught my attention too:-
head position, and anatomic compression by adjacent structures in the neck
This is the sort of research that ties in with the theories of Jaw misalignment and atlasbalance.
CCSVI could genuinely be a symptom or indicator of other problems.
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:14 pm
by CureOrBust
I have no memory of any trauma, no pain / discomfort in my jaw or any other joints, and yet I have been treated for CCSVI (ie found venous issues). In my PERSONAL case, neither of these lead to an explanation of my MS, and CCSVI treatment has not resolved or improved it in any noticeable fashion. We have a lot more investigations to go before people can make the links above from research simply documenting the norms.
If the researchers saw the links from ALL the data available to them, they would suggest it in the conclusions and follow it further.
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:42 pm
by MrSuccess
C-or-B ..... have you researched the relationship between MS and trauma ?
If not ..... just enter ... MS + Trauma .... into a search engine .....
This is a L-O-N-G held THEORY . And a real eye opener.
CCSVI certainly now supplies the missing connection between TRAUMA and previously healthy people developing MS symptoms within various timeframes.
Thankfully ..... the percentile is low . About a 6/100 chance.
I do not like those odds.
MrSuccess
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:44 am
by CureOrBust
MrSuccess wrote:C-or-B ..... have you researched the relationship between MS and trauma ?
Again, I will repeat, I have no history of trauma (unless you are counting the times I have stubbed my toe)
MrSuccess wrote:If not ..... just enter ... MS + Trauma .... into a search engine .....
This is a L-O-N-G held THEORY . And a real eye opener.
The operative word there is theory. Try entering UFO into google; without all the punctuation.
i
HAVE tried Trauma and Multiple sclerosis within
google scholar. A little less than stellar results on this "long held theory"; possibly not by the scientific community.
MrSuccess wrote:CCSVI certainly now supplies the missing connection between TRAUMA and previously healthy people developing MS symptoms within various timeframes.
I have failed to see this any writings by the people who actually
know about CCSVI. Could you point me to any?
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:16 am
by EJC
"Trauma" is a global word in this instance which could also include such things as wisdom tooth extraction or multiple extractions for orthodontic treatment.
Don't assume it always means a physical accident.
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:46 am
by CureOrBust
EJC wrote:"Trauma" is a global word in this instance which could also include such things as wisdom tooth extraction or multiple extractions for orthodontic treatment.
Still have my wisdom teeth, never had any extractions or any orthodontic treatment.
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:48 am
by EJC
CureOrBust wrote:EJC wrote:"Trauma" is a global word in this instance which could also include such things as wisdom tooth extraction or multiple extractions for orthodontic treatment.
Still have my wisdom teeth, never had any extractions or any orthodontic treatment.
I was explaining it doesn't necessarily mean a "bang on the neck" there are other possibilities. Even something like a congenital misalingment.
The thing is, a large percentage (meaning not everyone) has a connection with some form of trauma, some don't. It's worth checking out, even if it does nothing other than rule it out.
Partial Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:03 am
by MarkW
It is only a Partial Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI syndrome but the largest published to date (I am with you on this Cece, some veins have been missed, lets hope they are covered soon).
All stenoses need to diagnosed and treated. This must cover vein valves, webs, septums, pressure from atlas vertebrae, mis-aligned jaws etc etc. My advice is to have the first group (vein valves, webs, septums) treated and re-checked before moving on to the second group.
Focussing on a few veins (IJVs+Azyous only) or just the Atlas is a mistake in my view. Gold standard diagnosis of major veins is expensive, then we need to add atlas/jaw diagnosis, more cost. I appreciate that cost is an issue for most people.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Re: Partial Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:20 am
by EJC
MarkW wrote: This must cover vein valves, webs, septums, pressure from atlas vertebrae, mis-aligned jaws etc etc. My advice is to have the first group (vein valves, webs, septums) treated and re-checked before moving on to the second group.
Having now had experience of both, I feel there is something to having both "treatments". But I'd reverse the order, I'd suggest getting neck/jaw checked first (and treated as necessary) then addressing the viens.
Simply for the reason that I have a feeling, and at present it's not a great deal more than that, that the jaw neck problem might be compounding the CCSVI (possibly causing it). Getting the neck/jaw looked at first may save having to have two CCSVI procedures.
The other thing to consider is getting the jaw/neck checked is quick and inexpensive.
Low Cost is big driver
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:31 am
by MarkW
I totally understand the cost considerations. That is why I said Vit D as step one. 5000iu/day costs around 15 gbp (pounds) a year. The cost to give all pwMS in the UK (100,000) is 1.5 million pounds a year. Yet our close minded neuros do not give Vit D3 to everyone diagnosed with MS or suspected of having MS..............close minded or what.
Looking at de-stenosis as a whole will be patient driven, as vascular specialists and dentists/orthodontists are in very different areas. Chiropractors/Oesteopaths are not usually included in mainstream medicine.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:12 pm
by MrSuccess
C or B .... we are all here at TIMS looking for the same answers . I think it unwise to judge any single avenue of thought ..... as THE ONE. That includes CCSVI.
You just never know .... like the saying goes ... ' out of the mouth of babes .... '
All things said Cure or Bust ..... please read the following for all it's worth to you .....
THE FOX and THE GRAPES Aesop
Once upon a time there was a fox strolling through the woods. He came upon a grape orchard. There he found a bunch of beautiful grapes hanging from a high branch. Boy , those sure would be tasty ,he thought to himself. He backed up and took a running start and jumped. He did not get high enough.
He went back to his starting spot and tried again. He almost got high enough this time , but not quite. He tried and tried , again and again, but just couldn't get high enough to grab the grapes.
Finally, he gave up.
As he walked away, he put his nose in the air and said : I am sure those grapes are sour.
MORAL: IT IS EASY TO SCORN WHAT YOU CANNOT GET
MrSuccess
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:05 pm
by Cece
MrSuccess wrote:C or B .... we are all here at TIMS looking for the same answers . I think it unwise to judge any single avenue of thought ..... as THE ONE. That includes CCSVI.
But it is also unwise to judge all theories as equal.
The more scientific backing a theory has, the better.
Re: Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:00 pm
by CureOrBust
MrSuccess wrote:As he walked away, he put his nose in the air and said : I am sure those grapes are sour.
MORAL: IT IS EASY TO SCORN WHAT YOU CANNOT GET
I am CERTAIN the grapes are sweet, but for me, they are not where you say they are, thats all I have been saying. The Aesop tale might be sweet for a five year old, but you can keep it off the board. Like most here, I prefer published articles in respected peer reviewed journals, and the actual topic of this thread is regarding a "Review of Venous Anatomy in CCSVI", not about quoting fables. Escpecially in an attempt to belittle another poster, its disrespectful.
NOTE: Aesop wrote FABLES = A fable is a succinct
fictional story, in prose or verse... again, I suggest you follow the link to google scholar I provided above and try and find the fox and grapes. You may also wish to re-read the original posted link to focus your posts within this threads topic
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