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will the chiro.'s doing this training have to have their own upright mri machine and dr. rosa's patent collar to treat the same as dr. rosa? am i getting this understanding? otherwise how would it be done the same?

So what I am noticing is that with my AO adjustments I am slowly, gradually improving over time. It has been 2 weeks since my first adjustment. Everything is becoming so much easier to accomplish.The biggest improvement is less stiffness, my 24/7 contracted muscles are relaxed. Some !00% and some less but that alone has made the following easier... urinating and defecating and getting off the toilet. SOooooooo much easier. I think many can relate to this. And I can tolerate heat now. No longer have the A/C and fans blowing on me all the time. My brain does not feel like it is on a low boil. Life has become tolerable! This is a huge surprise to me.

Blossom,
It is too early to speculate how implementation might evolve. For now Dr. Rosa is focused on the research...this is as it should be. There is still much data to be collected and analyzed before it is reported.

Generally, if a scientific study with reliable data proves valuable, a practical way to implement the findings will follow.

Tamarack

Hi blossom and dania,
Where are these Drs. located? are there any in the Phila., Pa. area?
this sounds like it could be very helpful.
thank you

Hi dlynn,

I could be wrong but I think Dr. Rosa's study was near Albany, NY.

PN

Thanks PointsNorth!

dlynn

dlynn, google upright mri phila. you got them. i tried pitt. 7 yrs. ago they have one. but, looking back they were not trained as dr. rosa is doing and i was one person trying to find out what the heck was going on with my neck and spine that positioning effected my symptoms. and all this started after trauma. i had to jump through hoops back then to get it done.

one thing that really pissed me off is that they would not accept a Script from a chiro. it has to be A QUALIFIED MED. DR. --that has got to be changed. of course if the chiro. has his own upright mri as dr. rosa has access to and is trained by him this would i'd assume be the cadillac treatment. but, unfortunatly right now only a few of those who are in need will be rideing in a cadillac. but, hopefully that all changes soon. too many of us are running out of time.

i'm very happy and grateful to dr. flanagan, dr. rosa, dr. damadian and all involved in this and i do realize the importance to get all the ducks in order. as mainstream med. won't take it lightly and something noninvasive "no drugs" has the positive effect it is showing.

HAPPYPOET SAID QUOTE---Gee, I can't help but feel that patients are having to step through minefields again.

happypoet, you are right, this seems to be the case. it seems that in many things in life we are expected to stay 10 feet behind except through a minefield then we are put right up front. and told to deal with it. guess we will--what's the choice? but, i am getting very very tired and not too quick. would be nice if things were easier for a change.

blossom wrote:dlynn, google upright mri phila. you got them. i tried pitt. 7 yrs. ago they have one. but, looking back they were not trained as dr. rosa is doing and i was one person trying to find out what the heck was going on with my neck and spine that positioning effected my symptoms. and all this started after trauma. i had to jump through hoops back then to get it done.

one thing that really pissed me off is that they would not accept a Script from a chiro. it has to be A QUALIFIED MED. DR. --that has got to be changed. of course if the chiro. has his own upright mri as dr. rosa has access to and is trained by him this would i'd assume be the cadillac treatment. but, unfortunatly right now only a few of those who are in need will be rideing in a cadillac. but, hopefully that all changes soon. too many of us are running out of time.

i'm very happy and grateful to dr. flanagan, dr. rosa, dr. damadian and all involved in this and i do realize the importance to get all the ducks in order. as mainstream med. won't take it lightly and something noninvasive "no drugs" has the positive effect it is showing.

All so very interesting to ponder.

I had an old friend contact me recently, his friend's daughter has MS (mid 30's), I spoke with her extensively, got a copy of Marie's book in her hands, but what really stuck out to me, was hearing about the problems she had when she was little, balance issues, problems walking etc.

They sent her to specialists from UCLA, neuros, you name it, and eventually decided it was her posture that was the problem, once she was properly trained in correcting her posture, the problems went away, but then all these years later, she develops MS. Real shoulder shrugger.

I find all this positional related problems intriguing, along with the solutions.

There has been some discussion on this thread about finding atlas orthogonal chiropractors and where they are located.

Patients can locate Atlas Orthogonal chiropractors here: http://www.atlasorthogonality.com/Patie ... outAO.html

Please remember:
*Not all practioners are equal
*Very few chiropractors are yet aware of Dr. Rosa’s research, CCSVI, or understand the mechanics of csf and venous drainage
*Currently none are able to replicate Rosa’s methodology or have the vectors for treatment that he produces by coupling the upright MRI with AO x-rays. So any results a patient might achieve (or not achieve) with another AO doc should not reflect on Rosa’s research. We are in a whole new ballgame with the addition of the upright MRI and Dr. Rosa’s/Damadian’s coils.

I wish things were different and the results of Rosa’s study were complete and available to us now. They simply cannot be rushed. But, take heart, it was not all that long ago that the only efforts devoted to MS were coming from neurology, the MS societies and the pharmaceutical companies. We now have more involvement from a growing number of scientists in a variety of fields and the CCSVI Alliance (ccsvi.org) to help move things forward.

This is not a “minefield.” It is a new area of study with a ray of hope and an opportunity to learn more about neurodegenerative diseases that have plagued mankind for millennia.

Tamarack

Found the answer to one of my questions:
Dr. Rosa charges ~$4,000 for MRIs and $150 for each adjustment.*
I paid a charge of $450 for X-rays and pay $50 for each adjustment.

*Source: TiMS' grapevine; if these charges are incorrect, please let me know, thx.

I still wonder about my other questions: How much more accurate is Dr. Rosa's guided-imaging method compared to the traditional AO chiro method and does any increase in accuracy translate into better patient outcomes? Sadly, as Tamarack so eloquently explained, many years may go by before we have the answers, but it's heartening to know there are researchers like Dr. Rosa interested in pursuing the science. I was proud to be a participant in his study last year (I was one of only two MS patients in the trial).

This new trial seems to have two arms: 1) Examining MS and Parkinson's patients' CSF flow pre- and post-adjustment, and 2) Introducing an unproven, patent-pending method of obtaining AO vectors.

Tamarack, I'm glad you're posting, and thank you for sharing your story with us. For almost two years now, I've been seeing my AO chiro and have been benefiting from improvements in leg numbness and rib cage spasticity. I've been a longtime poster on Dr. Flanagan's thread (starting on pg 3) and have experienced all the highs and lows that went along with trying to spread the word about this new ray of hope which, believe me, was not always easy in this CCSVI forum back when petty arguments and turf wars filled each day with some factions of CCSVI supporters almost militant in their overzealousness about all things CCSVI and always seemingly in attack mode against those of us who dared advocate for AO chiro for patients in whom CCSVI had failed or had given disappointing results, so with owning a tumultuous two-year history in this minefield, with many scars to prove it, I'm one of the strongest advocates of AO chiro you will ever find here at TiMS.

Furthermore, several of us defended Dr. Flanagan countless times at great emotional expense to ourselves when the original gangsta naysayers and even other doctors attacked him and his ideas, but slowly, ever so slowly, over the past two years, we've helped AO chiro make inroads into the minds of the most ardent CCSVI believers. So, some of us have been inside this AO chiro minefield for two very long years, and we survivors try to continue to be a part of it to help ensure patients have all the information they need to make informed decisions. As many of us have learned the hard way, research and experiments on chronically ill patients with serious neurodegenerative symptoms and diseases can often feel like one is in a minefield--thank you for helping to lessen the negative effects of this one.

Tamarack, a few questions for you, plz:

*You spoke about the lack of follow up care and concern from your CCSVI IRs. In this new trial, is Dr. Rosa contacting all patients for follow-up of symptoms? (After my participation in Dr. Rosa's trial last year, I was never contacted.) In addition to examining CSF flow in MS and Parkinson's patients, is symptom improvement an endpoint in Dr. Rosa's new trial?

*Did Dr. Rosa and those who recruited patients for this new trial disclose to all patients that Dr. Rosa has a financial interest in the outcome of this trial? (I do know that Dr. Damadian uses a standard 'forward-looking statement' disclosure in Fonar upright MRI documents.)

*Are all patients being informed before their participation in this new trial that no other AO chiros would be able to provide the same treatment Dr. Rosa provided in the trial for at least the foreseeable future? In other words, were patients informed that their involvement in the study was for a one-time-only adjustment that only Dr. Rosa could perform?

*Especially for patients who travel far to participate in Dr. Rosa's study, what are patients advised to do, and/or not to do, regarding pursuit of traditional AO chiro adjustments back home? Does Dr. Rosa advise patients not to pursue AO chiro because their local AO chiros can't use the same treatment that Dr. Rosa provided in the trial? Or is Dr. Rosa advising patients that using their local AO chiros will still be beneficial?

*Is Dr. Rosa offering his guided-imaging adjustments outside of this new trial? If yes, this practice is similar to IRs having performed venoplasty outside of trials, yes?

*A head-to-head trial design would be helpful to show if Dr. Rosa's guided-imaging treatment helps patients' symptoms more than traditional AO chiro. Is Dr. Rosa interested in participating in such a trial in the future?

*For patients who can't afford the cost of MRIs, is Dr. Rosa still performing traditional AO chiro using only AO X-rays, or is he referring those patients to traditional AO chiros?

*Has recruitment ended for Dr. Rosa's new trial, and can participants ever receive a copy of their scans?

We're all very thankful and grateful that Dr. Rosa is researching the effects of AO chiro on CSF flow. I hope he's rightly rewarded for his dedication to patients like us, and I share in everyone's hopes for a brighter future. Tamarack, thanks for starting "HOPE AND CONCERN: Dr. Rosa's Guided Image Upright MRIs." I look forward to more of your input and help.

*************

Masterfully maneuvering MS's multifactorial morphology and minefields of myriad mixed messages, misunderstandings, missteps, miscues, misstatements, mistakes, misinterpretations, and misdiagnoses, manifested from mankind's mysterious motivations and methods, make manufacturing and marketing millions more milligrams of mightily monstrous molecules and mainstream microscopic mouse-model medications murderous mayhem; make the marshaling, modifying, manipulating, monitoring, mutating, mixing, and maintaining of marauding, masquerading, mutinous microbes most macabre; make the measuring of many markers of merciless misery and morbidity of mere mortals moribund; and make meeting the milestones that maintain muscle movement merrily momentous.

[NotJohnson, m = ~70 - 3]

Hello Poet,
I have contacted Dr Rosa directly to follow up on your questions.

Dr Rosa states he is not sure who your source is on fees, but it is incorrect. Not one of his research cohorts has ever paid any fees for being part of his research. So the fees you discuss make no sense. As for the fees themselves, comparing an x-ray series to an advanced MRI is essentially apples to oranges. MRI's are a significantly more sophisticated process than taking x-rays. They translate into much higher equipment costs and considerably more time in analyzing the images. Furthermore, in his private practice, Dr. Rosa does not charge $4000 for an MRI and $150 for an adjustment.

For the record, any of the clinical trials that have been performed, have been funded by Dr Rosa's not for profit foundation which accepts donations. Respectfully, Poet, the people that know his work are at the root of him being able to conduct research as well as treat patients like you. In time it may lead to widespread successful treatment of many patients in need.

Dr. Rosa’s study is a clinical trial. The clinical trial is in discovery phase and results will not be known until the end of the study. Ultimately, these results will contribute to a body of knowledge which will be shared with other scientists involved in adjunctive efforts.

This study is not about me. It is not about you. It is not about Dr. Rosa. It is not about treatment and follow-up. It IS about doing good science with an endpoint of observational data on the pathological conditions (sequelae) of aberrant csf flow patterns as they relate to atlas misalignments in patients with clinically diagnosed MS and Parkinson's. Again, Dr. Rosa's study is strictly observational, it is not treatment and does not offer a cure.

The current study evolved from previous work which focused exclusively on post-trauma patients. It unexpectedly revealed a significant number of lesions in those patients with clinically diagnosed MS or Parkinson's. This observation led to discussion with an interdisciplinary group of scientists who agreed that further study was warranted. Dr. Rosa subsequently developed his current study and has oversight with an IRB (Internal Review Board) to whom he must report.

Happy Poet, you mentioned you were in a study last year; therefore you would not have been in the current study which started in 2012. Your cohort had a totally different process and focus. You were NOT part of the MS clinical trial.

Poet's question:
I found the answer to one of my questions:
Dr. Rosa charges ~$4,000 for MRIs and $150 for each adjustment.
I paid a charge of $450 for X-rays and pay $50 for each adjustment.

Poet, this information is not accurate for Dr. Rosa's private practice nor is it relevant to the study. Clinical trial patients do not pay for the imaging or the treatment, but do pay for their travel expenses. It might also be helpful to know that Dr. Rosa must travel five hours round-trip to the Albany, New York area for all upright MRI studies.

Another question from Poet:
Did Dr. Rosa and those who recruited patients for this new trial disclose to all patients that Dr. Rosa has a financial interest in the outcome of this trial? (I do know that Dr. Damadian uses a standard 'forward-looking statement' disclosure in Fonar upright MRI documents.)

Dr. Rosa does not now, nor has he ever received income from his research. In fact he has self-funded some of his previous research. His current study is supported by private donations.

He has developed a patented imaging procedure utilizing Fonar upright MRI technology with special coils and software created for his advanced imaging methods. These methods utilize very thin slices and pay close attention to aberrant csf fluid flow patterns as well as misalignments at the cranio-cervical junction. This is significantly more detailed than previously available. It should also be noted that he has never had a financial interest in the outcome of his trials and he has no fiduciary interest in Fonar Corp.

Another Poet question:
Are all patients being informed before their participation in this new trial that no other AO chiros would be able to provide the same treatment Dr. Rosa provided in the trial for at least the foreseeable future? In other words, were patients informed that their involvement in the study was for a one-time-only adjustment that only Dr. Rosa could perform?
And, Especially for patients who travel far to participate in Dr. Rosa's study, what are patients advised to do, and/or not to do, regarding pursuit of traditional AO chiro adjustments back home? Does Dr. Rosa advise patients not to pursue AO chiro because their local AO chiros can't use the same treatment that Dr. Rosa provided in the trial? Or is Dr. Rosa advising patients that using their local AO chiros will still be beneficial?

Volunteers for the study understand the nature of their participation. The study is for observational research only (not for diagnostic purposes.) On the day of the study, Dr Rosa (and ONLY he) adjusts all study patients. He uses the vectors he has calculated by using the imaging from the upright MRI and the x-ray. These vectors are calculated after close scrutiny by Dr Rosa using the MRI findings in conjunction with the x-ray findings, hence his vectors can only be achieved with the findings from the MRI. Patients are subsequently followed by selected AO doctors whose skill level is known to Dr. Rosa. The calculated vectors are provided to those doctors and Dr. Rosa remains in contact with the AO doctors for patient updates. Patients do pay for follow-up adjustments; obviously, the rates for treatment vary depending on what part of the country the patient is in and insurance coverage.

Another Poet question:
Has recruitment ended for Dr. Rosa's new trial, and can participants ever receive a copy of their scans.

This is a clinical trial and volunteers do not receive copies of their scans. Recruitment and selection of patients is dependent on many variables. At this time, the MS study is full.

For those who wish to review Dr. Rosa's credentials, they can be found at these sites:
* http://atlasorthogonality.com/Physician ... osaBio.htm
* http://www.atlasorthogonality.com/Patie ... outUs.html (Rosa is Vice President of R.W. Sweat Foundation)

In addition, Dr. Rosa has recently been elected as Chairman of Research of the Upper Cervical Council, for the International Chiropractic Association and will be teaching the advanced imaging portion in their upcoming Diplomate Program which will be the most extensive training program on Upper Cervical Chiropractic ever created.

Dr. Rosa has presented at many conferences and taught both nationally and internationally. He will be presenting at three medical venues in Sweden, September of 2012.

Please note that Dr. Zadinov at BNAC has recently published his important study on csf flow which focuses on the aquaduct of Silvius. Review it at: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0/abstract. Study conclusion: CSF flow dynamics are altered in MS patients. More severe clinical and MRI outcomes in RRMS and CIS patients relate to altered CSF flow and velocity measures.

Also, Joan Beal (Cheerleader) has dusted off her June 2009 TIMS CSF thread. Take a look…important information from Dr. Eliot Frohman - http://www.thisisms.com/forum/chronic-c ... c8147.html

And, of course, everyone knows to visit Michael Flanagan's TIMS thread to ask questions http://www.thisisms.com/forum/chronic-c ... 14005.html

I hope this thread has served to help clarify and inform. As interest escalates in the csf part of the puzzle and knowledgeable researchers join the conversation we will get closer to fully understanding the complex physics of csf and blood flow as they relate to neurodegenerative disease.

In the meantime, please direct all future questions for this thread to Michael Flanagan. He is the most knowledgeable spokesperson on TIMS for the dynamics of aberrant csf flow and how it affects the brain and disease processes. Thank you.

Tamarack

hi tamarack, thanks so much for getting back and answering poet's questions-this meant a lot to everyone. those that are just starting to pay attention to this "very" important part of trying to solve these dreaded symptoms we live with everyday. although things are shifting in support of the spinal implications with these symptoms-there are still skeptics. "happy poet is not a skeptic" and was and is "amongst the few people early on here at tims" supportive of dr. flanagan-and participated in a study by dr. rosa and currently gets chiro. treatment.

i think her questions had to be asked and it's good they were asked -- and your answers covered a lot of territory. i feel the questions asked by poet and your answers would have to impress and make anyone doubting or wanting to brush this off step back and take a good look at the importance of the work dr. rosa is doing and his findings.

for some of the ones just taking interest in all this but are a little in the dark these questions asked by poet and your answers sheds more light. her asking these questions i did not take it in anyway that she was trying to take anything from dr. rosa's intentions or credentials. i think the questions were a brilliant way to get skeptics attention in a positive way. thanks!

MrSuccess cannot think of a more helpful and insightful place for learning about MS ,than This Is MS.

There is a continual collection of - often first hand - information about MS presented on a daily basis ..... supplied by very bright people.

Happy Poet has done a wonderful job in asking for information , in her own way.

The information about Dr.Rosa's work is quite interesting . Thanks Tamarack for bringing it to this site. I do have one concern. Unlike Dr.Zamboni - who has freely provided his methods and procedures - ..... it seems " redflaggish" that Dr.Rosa is reluctant to be more open about his work. well ... that's how I understand it ....


MrSuccess [ Pam ... " redflaggish " ]

MrSuccess, Dr Rosa has not completed his study. He will be presenting his finding when all are done. I am one of he lucky ones in his study. I think Zamboni only made his public debut once his study was finished.