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B12 deficiency/malabsorption symptoms look a lot like MS. I'm working with a naturopath to resolve suspected malabsorption. Video (50 min) below is excellent. Of course so many B12-deficient peeps are diagnosed w. MS.
I've often said that there is not ONE MS symptom that cannot also be explained by a B12 deficiency! Interesting that they mention cerebro-vascular involvement in B12 deficiency. Perhaps a B12 deficiency could be a factor in CCSVI? Maybe it is the resulting elevation of homocysteine level leading to endolethial dysfunction And we know pwMS have issues with B12 . . . along with CFS, Alzheimer's etc.
Please watch and let me know what you think.
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:25 pm
by Anonymoose
I could only tolerate it until 9:06 then I had to shut it down. What doctor doesn't associate neurological symptoms with possible B12 deficiency?! He can't be a real doctor because if he was, he had to have lost all of his patients when they realized he didn't know about B12. That's the first thing I thought of when I had my first MS fit...and I'm not even close to being a doctor! What mother with a veggie kid doesn't make sure to supplement B12 and be wary of deficiency?! A picture of a man (the alleged doctor) sitting in a chair completely nekkid with the exception of a diaper?? The ridiculousness of it all!
Do you know the time marker when they talk about cerebro-vascular involvement? I just can't watch the rest without yelling at my computer like a crazy woman.
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:53 pm
by PointsNorth
Yes, you would think vegetarians would be aware of b12 deficiency. But the pediatrician? You'd have expected more . . . but as the video points out MDs are out to lunch! In fact, an MD friend recommended I see a Naturo as medicos don't know anything about B12. Please continue watching the video . . . . Some key observations are made. My prescription: tall glass of vino.
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:05 am
by Cece
Lol, now I have to watch it.
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:30 am
by Anonymoose
PointsNorth wrote:My prescription: tall glass of vino.
Did you ever see that movie Blind Date? Wine+me+that video=guaranteed disaster. I'd just wind up dancing on the table whilst yelling at my computer.
Sigh. I'll watch it in small sober doses today.
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:58 am
by Anonymoose
After you get past the 11 minute mark, it's not so bad (except the doctor part...how scary is that?). Very interesting that b12 blood levels don't necessarily indicate you are okay. It seems like they should couple the b12 tests with mma/homocysteine tests. Both mma and homocysteine cause inflammation, don't they? I would think, in the very least, inflammation isn't good for blood vessels.
How's your b12 analogue intake? The analogues can actually inhibit absorption of real b12. Soy...seaweed...tempeh
Presence and formation of cobalamin analogues in multivitamin-mineral pills.
H Kondo, M J Binder, J F Kolhouse, W R Smythe, E R Podell, and R H Allen
Because the origin of cobalamin (vitamin B12) analogues in animal chows and animal and human blood and tissues is unknown, we investigated the possibility that multivitamin interactions might convert cobalamin to cobalamin analogues. We homogenized three popular multivitamin-mineral pills in water, incubated them at 37 degrees C for 2 h, and isolated the cobalamin. Using paper chromatography we observed that 20-90% of the cobalamin was present as cobalamin analogues. Studies using CN-[57Co]cobalamin showed that these analogues were formed due to the concerted action of vitamin C, thiamine, and copper on CN-cobalamin. These cobalamin analogues are absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract of mice and either fail to stimulate or actually inhibit cobalamin-dependent enzymes when injected parenterally. We conclude that CN-cobalamin can be converted to potentially harmful cobalamin analogues by multivitamin-mineral interactions and that these interactions may be responsible for the presence of cobalamin analogues in animal chows and animal and human blood and tissues.
I just don't get how you can inject b12 and have it crash so quickly! Do you think your other supplements/medications could be doing that?
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:59 pm
by PointsNorth
My Gastro argues that my SERUM B12 level is sky-high (1400) but I argue that it is not getting off at the right 'stop'. So maybe malabsorption? I don't have a PhD in Bio-Chemistry! But I do know that many of my MS symptoms improve 24hrs after B12 shot and begin to disappear 48 hours later.
A lab in Atlanta is doing MMA test + more for me currently.
First I'm hearing about analogues. Thanks for this. I'm using soy instead of milk in my tea currently . . . Yuk. No seaweed for a while. I will do some reading. Gave up gluten a few months back. I shall look to see if I'm taking anything unfriendly to B12. I'll post my lab results.
Here is something that ties low B12 to homocysteine and venous thrombosis. My small bowel was only shortened by 8-inches so I don't think I qualify for short bowel syndrome.
PN--When I was writing up the Endothelial Health program in '08, before Dr. Zamboni's research was online, I did a lot of reading on the effect of homocysteine on blood vessels, since I was looking at ways to help Jeff heal his vasculature. Low B12 is #7 on the potential causes of endothelial dysfunction list: http://www.ccsvi.org/index.php/helping- ... ial-health
7.Low Vitamin B12 levels
Low vitamin B12 creates high levels of homocysteine in the blood (a sulfur containing amino acid) which damages the endothelium. An unbalanced diet, a strict vegetarian diet that excludes all meat, fish, dairy and eggs diet, or a diet overly reliant on processed foods, could all lead to low vitamin B12 levels, potentially damaging the endothelium20. http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHe ... rticle.jsp
Thanks Cheer, I ran across your e-health stuff in my travels. I'm trying to get to the bottom of my B12 problem before I reach bottom! You may like to watch video in my initial post above. B12 deficiency, if left unchecked, looks a lot liKe MS. My demand for B12 has paralleled my descent into SPMS.
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:52 pm
by jimmylegs
have you also tested zinc status? it's part of the puzzle of nutrient interactions. if you have good zinc status, you don't have to take as much b12.
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:22 pm
by PointsNorth
Hi jimmy,
You know I've been on the zinc wagon for a couple years now for bowel issues - but for the last 8-10 months it has not worked at all. Just stopped working one day last spring. Still taking a few times a week.
B12 has gradually become less effective for me in recent years and now I am injecting every 3 days. A functional deficiency me thinks.
PN
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:36 am
by jimmylegs
yes i remember your initial positive effects. but curious re level testing? would provide a clearer more definitive picture. i'm thinking perhaps a copper zinc imbalance? any chance of serum copper and serum zinc testing? what exactly were your symptoms last spring when the zinc stopped working? what daily dose of zinc were you on? did your zinc product contain copper?
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:02 pm
by PointsNorth
I shall approach Naturo about further testing. When zinc stopped working, bowel problems - exactly what the zinc was helping with came back with a vengeance and has continued downhill to this day. Daily dose was 50mg I think. I think my multi at the time had small amount (2mg?) copper. Wish an independent lab was available to me. As the video above reveals, MDs only get 1/2 lecture on B12.
PN
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:33 am
by MarkW
PointsNorth wrote:But I do know that many of my MS symptoms improve 24hrs after B12 shot and begin to disappear 48 hours later.
Hello PN,
Have you tried using B12 sub-lingual (S-L) tablets? The B12 enters the blood stream directly from under the tongue. Not much is adsorbed but it could be sufficient to maintain your levels after a B12 shot, so worth a try. I use 5000 micro g S-L tabs from iherb in California but there should be plenty of sources in NA. If is tough when you are not getting a full blood picture but an S-L tab is worth a try, as you can measure the impact of B12 by MS symptoms.
I also do not have a PhD (in anything) so will not try to predict the outcome, just suggesting a safe test.
Best Wishes,
MarkW
PS Receive $10 off your 1st order of $40 & up, or $5 off on smaller orders, when using your code: WAL561
Or, use the following custom link with my code in it: http://www.iherb.com/?rcode=WAL561
I do not benefit personally from this. I use my discounts to reduce the cost of D3 at http://www.omstc.org.
Re: B12 - CCSVI Connection
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:22 pm
by PointsNorth
Howdie Mark,
I've tried/trying loads of methyl/dibencozide supps including a 15g methylcob sublingual. I find that the injectable is far better than the sublingual. I will post my test results re: B12 deficiency (methylmalonic acid/homocysteine) when I get them next week.
I've learned a lot about B12 on a CFS forum called Phoenix Rising. They are way in front of me! Methylation concerns, gene mutations (MTHFR) etc. It's hard to find a doctor that is current on this stuff. I think my Naturopath is. My Gastro thinks that just because my serum level is high that there can't be a problem. I try to explain 'functional deficiency' and 'malabsorption' but no one is home.