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Accidentally I posted this twice. Sorry

My post on « MS : More Women than Men” CCSVI thread dated Feb. 11, 2013 9:05 am Vesta- led to the following comments.

ljelone, Feb 22, 2013
i found an interesting relationship between hormone (progesterone) and
venous disease. Maybe could help u in some way of thinking. I quoted from a
book found on the web "Medicographia95, The Venous Valve and Primary Chronic
Venous Disease", by J. Bergan :(I have a link of the book in the "venous
valve" topic)

Primary venous insufficiency
A dysfunctional venous system is caused for the main part by functional failure of
venous valves. The molecular mechanisms uncovered recently that enter into
functional valve failure are mentioned above. Other factors are
traditionally cited as contributing to venous valve failure; these include
female sex, pregnancy, obesity, a standing occupation in women,7 and
heredity.8,9 An increase in vein diamy eter is one cause of valve dysfunction
and reflux. Progesterone inhibits smooth muscle contraction. This is useful
in preventing uterine contraction and spontaneous abortion in pregnancy.
However, preventing vein wall smooth muscle contraction allows passive
dilation of veins and when a critical diameter is reached, a functioning
venous valve becomes dysfunctional or incompetent. As half of a women’s
adult lifetime is under the influence of progesterone, and
this is exacerbated markedly during pregnancy, it is no wonder that primary
venous insufficiency is twice as common in women than in men.7"

This implies that progesterone damages the venous valves which could account
for the greater incidence of MS among women.

Anonymoose, who is apparently an MD and/or has a scientific background, commented that progesterone protected women from MS. I admit I misunderstood her at first. She used the post to discuss another issue which is nonetheless of interest. Her comments follow. .

"The one thing MSers all have in common is a constant release of aldosterone and cortisol. As far as I can tell, everything else can be explained from that
starting point...Chronic aldosterone appears to participate in
impairment of cerebral blood perfusion. "

"I can also tell you that I have experienced
improvements whilst inhibiting aldosterone and cortisol with low dose clonidine
and a couple 1/2 cups of hibiscus tea a day (I need between .1 and .2 mg of
clonidine and they don't have in between patch doses). My chronic painful stiff
neck and shoulders are relaxed. I have regained sensitivity in my hands and
nothing buzzes like it used to with stress or activity. I did have some weird
sensations while finding the right dose. My energy is back to normal. My mind is
crystal clear. I'm very early in ms so I don't really have anything else to
improve beyond getting the rest of my hands back. It's working. If there weren't
a strong connection, it would not be working.

I think it is a big mistake to ignore our constant release of aldosterone.”

Then on Feb 28, 2013 under General Discussion "Very Successful Treatment with
Rituxan" "Potts" posted an article describing how his doctor prescribed a
Rituxan injection with impressive results which resemble the
improvements seen after effective angioplasty.

Anonymoose commented:

"I am experiencing similar improvements by inhibiting cortisol
and aldosterone with clonidine and hibiscus tea. I wonder if you aren't
experiencing improvements for the same reason. Rituxan decreases cortisol and
aldosterone in 5/6 patients with Addison's. I wonder if it works the same
with chronic hpa activation in MS.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22767640/"

My response:

The theory on Aldosterone and Cortisol would seem to give a
Scientific biochemical explanation for thousands of years of Chinese Medical
theory observation as well as bridge the gap between the practices of Neurology
and Phlebology, thus reconciling Neurologists to treating MS as a circulatory
disorder.

I have described on my site how I feel Chinese
Medical theory might explain the epidemiological factors in MS with emphasis on
the Meridiens running from the head down the neck, shoulders and spine – Gall
Bladder and Bladder. After I heard about Dr. Zamboni’s CCSVI theory I began to
give myself daily Acupressure treatments to open blood circulation from the head
using these Meridiens, thus keeping my disease under control. The Bladder
meridian partner is the Kidney meridian which is actually the Kidney/Adrenals,
belonging to the Water element which is injured through cold and Fear. There you
have it. Fight or Flight. Stress. So the Acupuncture treatments open the blood
circulation, at least temporarily, and relieve the blood reflux. I believe the
detoxification/supplement/nutritional therapies prevent the stress
caused by food intolerances which in turn minimises the muscle tension. Put another way, they
probably have a biochemical impact on the hormones which trigger the
muscular/vascular stress. This implies they impact the Aldosterone and Cortisol..
Scientific research begins with observation. Why ignore what the Chinese have
observed over thousands of years.

If a low dose Clonidine patch and Hibiscus Tea suffice to put an end to a “chronic painful stiff neck and shoulders” and accompanying MS symptoms (caused by blood reflux into the Central Nervous System ?), Neurologists can prescribe this at least at first before launching the patient into potentially harmful (and useless ?)
immunosuppressive drugs, and patients will feel re-assured they are being
treated by real medicine since they are often wary of anything smacking of“natural”
healing.

Also, if the patient suffers from a more serious CCSVI stenosis, Neurologists might more freely refer her to an Interventional Radiologist without feeling upstaged.

I then looked up Rituxan to discover it is a chemotherapy drug. No thanks.

Clonidine patches used by "Anonymoose" are prescribed for high blood pressure, ADHD, migraines, and drug withdrawal (among many other things) and they are not without side effects, though obviously minor compared to immunosuppressive drugs..The Hibiscus Tea must be a powerful herbal
remedy since after drinking 2/3 of a cup (too much) late afternoon I felt sick
and fell into a deep sleep. I can’t imagine why, perhaps that was a
momentary fluke. Interesting tie in by Anonymoose again Feb 26, 2013
" I did some googling and found that hibiscus tea (which btw used to be a
very common drink in equatorial regions...hmmm) is an ACE inhibitor/aldo blocker that rivals lisinopril in effectiveness." But in reality I don’t need these things.
(I already take the Standard Process Drenamin supplement which may sufficiently address the Aldosterone issue.)

Consider that gluten intolerance, lactose intolerance and dietary
imbalances impact hormones leading to menstrual cramps, endometriosis and PMS,
and why not? the MS as well.

I would say that Anonymoose’s MS falls into the
Toxic MS category (see Five MS Types blog) and
that she does not have a physical obstruction or stenosis
requiring Angioplasty. The Toxic factors are the Aldesterone and Cortisone, perhaps triggered or exacerbated by the stress of gluten poisoning and other food intolerances. She has apparently pinpointed the biochemical factors which trigger the stress-causing muscular/vascular tension in the Toxic form of CCSVI MS.

Anonymoose has chosen the drug Clonidine and the Hibiscus tea
to chemically reduce the aldosterone and cortisone
which is causing the muscle/vascular tension and blood reflex. She warned me
on March 12 that those with low blood pressure shouldn't use this
treatment (and I do have low blood pressure.)

Another choice might be to follow a nutritional therapy to prevent
elevated aldosterone and cortisone levels. Said therapy might be better for
her overall health in the long run. On the other hand, if she is able to stop
neurological damage using these chemicals, that would be easier and in
itself is well worth it. Maybe she can do both. (Her fingers did shrivel up
when she used the too strong .2 mg Clonidine patch so she reduced her dose to .1 mg.)

Other drugs which impact blood circulation have been suggested of interest
in treating CCSVI MS. Wheelchair Kamikaze mentions Lisinopril (Zestril)
in his April 30, 2010 post. I'll repeat the interesting tie in by Anonymoose
" I did some googling and found that hibiscus tea (which btw used to be a
very common drink in equatorial regions...hmmm) is an ACE inhibitor/aldo blocker that rivals lisinopril in effectiveness." Viagra, another drug impacting blood circulation, was mentioned in a comment (since disappeared)
made to my Daily Kos article MS: Cure or Control Revolt.

For my overall health and well being, I’ll stick with my treatment
recommendations. But if someone wants a quick fix drug, probably the Clonidine
patch/Hibiscus tea sounds like a good solution. Real vein
abnormalities will probably require angioplasty.

These ideas could help remove MS from the Neurologists’ monopoly.
Also free MS patients from toxic drugs.

MS Cure Enigmas.net

Hi Vesta,

I just want to clarify that I have absolutely no medical or scientific background...just a mom and obsessive learner when something catches my interest.

Your reaction to the hibiscus tea is really odd. I've had no such reaction. It took about 5 hours to affect me at all and that came in the form of release of some neck tension that was returning after I lowered my clonidine dose. My son drinks full cups and has no issue. Another TIMSer is drinking it and thus far has not noticed any effect at all. It actually shouldn't really have enough of an impact to cause a difference for two weeks (according to the study comparing it to lisinopril, using change in bp as an indicator of effectiveness). I wonder what caused it! Could it have been the adrenal supplement you take?? Hibiscus tea can interact with other meds like acetaminophen.

I think you can address the aldosterone issue via diet and supplements. Vitamin D is a negative regulator of RAAS. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21852584

Several recent studies also demonstrate negative regulation of the renin gene by vitamin D.

...this would hopefully reduce aldosterone as it is part of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Limiting stress can also keep the aldosterone down. I just wanted to be absolutely positive I was targeting and hitting both cortisol (I have this fantasy that if I limit cortisol for long enough my hippocampus will recover sensitivity and my hpa-axis will fall back in line) and aldosterone so I went the pharmaceutical route. If you've gotten your vitamin D levels up like jimmylegs, I wonder if you haven't already addressed the aldosterone problem.

Thanks for at least giving the tea a try and best of luck with your methods!

Hi Anonymoose:
The tea may have affected me like that because I had been drinking too much earl grey tea since the fall (way too much) so that I couldn't handle anything. If Hibiscus tea works like lisinopril it would seem an ideal solution for someone to try since they can easily buy it and it should have no toxic effects at all. I'm just hyper-sensitive and OD ed on tea (which was stupid) II've probably handled the aldosterone etc problems with diet etc, but for 20 years I stopped and my health declined. Your idea is perfectly sound and people should give it a try, especially if they don't want to change their diet much. (There is a question of self help some people don't want to take.) I would love to eat glutens again but I do feel better without. Thanks for your idea, I think it's worth a try for everybody. (Don't know how to bring down the smileys.) Ciao

Vesta,
I don't know if this is of any significance (probably not) but in the 2 months before my first MS attack, I discovered Earl Grey tea and was drinking a lot of it. After my flare started, I found a case study about a man who had given himself MS like symptoms by drinking too much Earl Grey and depleting his b12. I think bergamot was the "dangerous" ingredient. He stopped drinking the tea and recovered. I stopped drinking the tea but still have MS. lol I can't find the study anymore. I'll try again later and post it if I do. You might want to be careful with that yummy Earl Grey.

Anonymoose: Thanks, that could well be the case, I felt poisoned from drinking it (earl grey) I'll have to drink herb tea, although green tea is probably OK. Anyway, I think that is why I reacted to any dark tea and once I'm detoxed I might try it (hibiscus) again. Sounds like a temporary "toxic" MS for the man you mention, which has happened with aspartame and amalgam fillings. Depends on individual sensitivity.

This isn't the study but it refers to it. I could have sworn b12 deficiency was related but its not mentioned. The k channel blocker effect is even more interesting to me at this point though. Aldosterone depletes us of k.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 3/fulltext

Tea: not immoral, illegal, or fattening, but is it innocuous?

Anne Marie Oudesluys-Murphy a, Niall Oudesluys a
Sir
J Finsterer's report (April 27, p 1484)1 of intoxication with Earl Grey tea coincides with a report on tea intoxication in the Netherlands involving 63 people, of whom 22 needed admission.2
In Finsterer's case, the toxic component was bergapten contained in the bergamot oil flavouring. The tea was consumed in large quantities of up to 4 L daily, and led to symptoms of muscle cramps, paraesthesiae, and blurred vision after 1 week. He deems the mechanism to be due to a largely selective axolemmal potassium-channel blocker, reducing potassium permeability at the nodes of Ranvier.
In the Netherlands report, herbal tea probably contained the Japanese star anise (Illicium anisatum L) instead of the Chinese star anise (Illicium verum L). The Japanese star anise contains anisatin, which is a non-competitive GABAA-receptor antagonist. In in-vitro studies, anisatin may cause long-term inhibition of the response to GABA once the receptor is blocked. The reported patients developed nausea, vomiting, auditory hallucinations, and epileptic attacks within hours of ingestion.
More than 3 billion kg of tea made from the leaves of the plant Camellia sinenis is consumed worldwide yearly, and has been drunk since at least 2737 BC. Of this, 78% is black tea, most of which is consumed in European countries and the USA. The leaves are allowed to wither before being broken to allow oxidisation or fermentation. Green tea, for which the withered leaves are steamed and rolled before drying to stop fermentation, accounts for 20% of consumption and is commonly drunk in Asian countries. The other 2% of consumption is of Oolong tea, produced by partial fermentation and consumed mainly in Southern China.
More than 2000 varieties of tea are produced, including spiced and flavoured varieties. Tea from the leaves of the plant Camellia sinenis has been associated with some health benefits attributed to its antioxidant activity.3 However, toxicity has been extensively reported in components of herbal teas containing such diverse ingredients as fir club moss, angel's trumpet, nerium oleander, mabi bark, and foxglove.
Tea is a comfort without which normal daily life for many would be much more stressful. Finsterer's and the Netherlands' cases destroy our life-long belief that tea is one little pleasure that, to quote Alexander Woollcott is not “immoral, illegal or fattening”.4

Anonymoose: I was drinking 2 pots a day (4 cups per pot). Way too much. Salt is toxic taken in too great a quantity. When so much is denied, I gave myself that pleasure. I made myself sick. Actually, I should only drink green tea, I'm not supposed to drink any tea at all. Maybe I should just drink hot water with lemon juice. Anyway, sorry to give a false note to your suggestion of hibiscus tea, I think people should give it a try, it may be the easiest and least toxic idea, and why not the clonidine as well if their Doctor will prescribe it. It is depressing to see how the Big Pharma wants to take over all the MS research and that people fall for it.