testing mice...
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:40 am
I boldly asked Dr Simka if we could put sclerosing foam in mice jugular veins and azygos veins to see if they get MS like lesions.
He said no because it is not possible to make an animal model of leg ulcers because the mice do not live long enough for one to develop.
HHHmmmmmmm.
So. that answers the question about how long it takes for these venous stenoses, in legs at least, to result in a lesion: a long time. So the blockage occurs and it takes some years before the person actually gets anything resembling an ulcer.
But with regards to the fact that people with cancer can have jugular veins removed occasionally in a radical neck dissection (throat cancer for example) and that those people, when the venous drainage is checked a month later seem to be "fine" because the vertebral veins have taken the load, are not at all assuring us that people will be fine if they lived another 15 years with the jugulars gone.
I had suspected it would be a long time before these anomalies would result in MS lesions because some lesions such as mine appear to be from birth-just the way I was made. Since my first MS attack was not until 30 years of age and I was my adult size at that point for 15 years, I guessed that it must take some years for these stenoses to result in an MS lesion...and even then I was really fine for another 13 years. If my first attack had not bee so severe that I ended up with MRI I would have gone another bunch of years just feeling bad in general...
Also, a significant number of people are found to have typical MS type lesions on autopsy when in life they had no diagnosis of MS. I bet they got stenoses very late in life too late to end up with a diagnosis because it just did not progress to that level where the person was identified as having a neurological problem before they passed away.
That may explain why it is rarer in older people: unless you are born with the anomaly that results in venous back pressure, it is uncommon to develop one later, therefore the average age some one would notice it is 30-40 when the lesion load reaches beyond plasticity? think so?
Anyway some many years before these lesions develop. I still anticipate the expert commentary that will be used to attempt to debunk this CCSVI model which will offer that jugular removal is known to be "safe and effective".....
He said no because it is not possible to make an animal model of leg ulcers because the mice do not live long enough for one to develop.
HHHmmmmmmm.
So. that answers the question about how long it takes for these venous stenoses, in legs at least, to result in a lesion: a long time. So the blockage occurs and it takes some years before the person actually gets anything resembling an ulcer.
But with regards to the fact that people with cancer can have jugular veins removed occasionally in a radical neck dissection (throat cancer for example) and that those people, when the venous drainage is checked a month later seem to be "fine" because the vertebral veins have taken the load, are not at all assuring us that people will be fine if they lived another 15 years with the jugulars gone.
I had suspected it would be a long time before these anomalies would result in MS lesions because some lesions such as mine appear to be from birth-just the way I was made. Since my first MS attack was not until 30 years of age and I was my adult size at that point for 15 years, I guessed that it must take some years for these stenoses to result in an MS lesion...and even then I was really fine for another 13 years. If my first attack had not bee so severe that I ended up with MRI I would have gone another bunch of years just feeling bad in general...
Also, a significant number of people are found to have typical MS type lesions on autopsy when in life they had no diagnosis of MS. I bet they got stenoses very late in life too late to end up with a diagnosis because it just did not progress to that level where the person was identified as having a neurological problem before they passed away.
That may explain why it is rarer in older people: unless you are born with the anomaly that results in venous back pressure, it is uncommon to develop one later, therefore the average age some one would notice it is 30-40 when the lesion load reaches beyond plasticity? think so?
Anyway some many years before these lesions develop. I still anticipate the expert commentary that will be used to attempt to debunk this CCSVI model which will offer that jugular removal is known to be "safe and effective".....