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Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3457 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:51 am Post subject:
TwistedHelix wrote:
I can't speak on Lyon's behalf, but I took him to mean that if we removed a bacterium with which we had a symbiotic relationship, the effect would be immediately obvious. Removing parasites which may be important in balancing our immune system would take much longer to show its effect on our health, and so it would be difficult to spot that direct causal link. Sorry, Bob, if I've misunderstood you.
EXACTLY! Very astute! You're better at explaining what I mean than I am! Thanks!
Quote:
I take your point, Cure, about survival rates going up if you remove parasites as a cause of death, but I can't quite get my head around why that would affect the rates of auto-immune disease -- suppose, for example, one per cent of a population gets auto-immune disease while four per cent die young because of parasite infestation. If you remove the parasites, four per cent will live longer, but the percentage getting autoimmunity should stay the same unless the parasites have something to do with the disease.
To some degree this is a moot point. Hopefully they will soon base a drug on whatever the worms are doing to the immune system and illness or death due to parasites won't be an issue. Additionally, the biggest risk with the parasites which had originally been found our areas is over infestation. Considering that they became extinct in our populations because they couldn't complete their life cycle, over infestation isn't really a consideration.
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with RRMS in Feb. 2006.
Because parasites often cause long-lasting infections, the researchers hypothesized that such infections could make persistent demands on the body and thereby reduce the likelihood that the immune system will attack healthy tissue.
Joined: Jul 28, 2005 Posts: 1334 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:23 am Post subject:
Lyon wrote:
.....not that we would have shed any tears!
Why? Would that be because they killed little jenny down the street with the cute smile & pig-tails.
Lyon wrote:
I'm going to have to put some numbers together for you because you seem to have the idea that parasite infestation is highly fatal.
No, I dont believe they are highly fatal, only to the people that die Its just easier to make cracks about it, than it is for you to mention that they arent little angels living just for us. But, the point is, some helminths have been known to cause death in humans; for that I am sure I have posted a link on another worm thread.
Lyon wrote:
I think we'd both be interested in seeing the percentage rate of death.
Its either that, or you have to keep putting up with my death march on all your post.
TwistedHelix wrote:
The point I was trying to make was simply this...
Thats what I thought, just didnt want to assume it.
As for survival rates, I think I can clear up my line of thought by using example numbers (which would equate to percentages...)
TwistedHelix wrote:
If you remove the parasites, four per cent will live longer, but the percentage getting autoimmunity should stay the same unless the parasites have something to do with the disease.
I can actually see the immune numbers going up, but doctors still wanting them out. If we had two groups of people (Group A & Group B) and only one group were infested with helminths (Group A), the original doctors MAY of found that:
In group A, over 1 year, 2 deaths were recorded, and only 1 Auto-immune condition was recorded. Now, in group B (uninfected) they recorded 1 death and 20 auto-immune cases. The reasearch / trials "primary end point" was recorded deaths, so in this study, the immune issues were not an issue, it was not an "end point". This is what I meant by that the deaths were not "spoiling the numbers" in group B; as they did with group A, who's gunna count who developed an itch when someone else has died. Just look at tysabri history for an example; and death wasnt reall even a "primary end point" to begin with.
ALSO, I think most doctors/companies would consider a death to be 10-30 times worse than a disease, so the single extra death really "bummed out" their statistics. ie The infected group had 200% the deaths observed in group B, while tingly skin aint so bad . Thats where yes, I can see that maybe time would prove their statistics to be biased due to their short observation period. It would also probably be hard to accurately measure peoples full life term with or without, as people who live in areas without parasites, also live with generaly better medical etc.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3457 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:00 am Post subject:
Quote:
This is what I meant by that the deaths were not "spoiling the numbers" in group B; as they did with group A, who's gunna count who developed an itch when someone else has died.
Thanks for explaining Cure, that's actually what I didn't understand.....what you meant by "bummed out"
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with RRMS in Feb. 2006.
Something seems wrong about this board. 400k people with MS equalling a serious health condition and to my count 6 to 8 people intersted enough to post I would think the number should be around a thousand..Why ? ... bad science ?
The parking lot test when looking for a place to get a beer
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3457 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject:
dylan48 wrote:
Something seems wrong about this board. 400k people with MS equalling a serious health condition and to my count 6 to 8 people intersted enough to post I would think the number should be around a thousand..Why ? ... bad science ?
There might be more people who use this site than you think but they are scattered among the various special interest forums. There also seem to be a lot of people who pop in from time to time just to see what's up. With over 3100 registered users there are surely some who signed up and never came back.
400k just in the US. As far as the vast majority are concerned, they are convinced that their doctor will tell them all they need to know.
dylan48 wrote:
The parking lot test when looking for a place to get a beer
Not 100% sure what you're getting at but I think you might mean that the roadhouse with the fullest parking lot is evidently "where it's at". Yeah, that would be here
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with RRMS in Feb. 2006.
Joined: Jul 28, 2005 Posts: 1334 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:41 am Post subject:
There are many ms boards on the internet, each with their own "feel". Some fit others better. I know I dont post on the others. Also, I have been here quite some time, and you see people come and go. When they go, they dont unsually leave a reason. Maybe we need an "exit" thread like we have an "introductions" thread. Over my time, the people who have left, appear to have not found what they want from a board here, or were misdiagnosed.
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Its just easier to make cracks about it, than it is for you to mention that they arent little angels living just for us. But, the point is, some helminths have been known to cause death in humans; for that I am sure I have posted a link on another worm thread.
. Thats where yes, I can see that maybe time would prove their statistics to be biased due to their short observation period. It would also probably be hard to accurately measure peoples full life term with or without, as people who live in areas without parasites, also live with generaly better medical etc.