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Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 295 Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject:
Hi Namedbos
I am from Iran. Moved to Turkey and then to Canada. Alberta specifically. It has one of the highest rates of MS in Canada(yeay for me). MS was also considred very very rare in Iran. However, there has been a recent increase in the number cases reported in Iran. My Dr. told me that the chances of getting MS is higher when you move from a country where the disease is rare to a MS prone country at around age 12. Guess when I moved to Canada? That's right! I was 12. I am not really sure how he knows that but that's what he said.
NN
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3398 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: follow-up
namedbos wrote:
I come from India and moved to the states in 2000 . Initially in South East with Weather similar to India . No problems there.
Moved to North East US in 2002 and problems started in 2003 , which was the first severe winter for me.. Happy to answer other questions you might have. Thanks for your interest.
Hi namedbos,
I should admit that several of us here on this site have our own ideas regarding what causes MS. What I and an increasing number of researchers (I'm not a researcher) are convinced leads to allergy, asthma and autoimmune disease is the lack of the parasites which had literally been part of the human system throughout evolution.
Someone long ago should have asked the question"how do those parasites survive in us when the job of the immune system is to kill them?" but in those days no one wanted to spend more time than necessary thinking about parasites and it wasn't until 1990 that researchers discovered that through human evolution those parasites have survived our immune system by pumping immune altering chemicals into us. By "modulating" or regulating our immune systems.
A good portion of the world's population is still infected with parasites..and don't experience allergy, asthma and autoimmune diseases. Not to be offensive, but for this purpose those places are usually referred to as "undeveloped" meaning that large areas don't have electricity, indoor plumbing, flush toilets, drive automobiles, etc...
The reason I find your situation interesting is because although things are changing rapidly in India, for the most part it remains an undeveloped country. As you mentioned it continues to have a low MS incidence (and low allergy, asthma, other autoimmunes) but is rising in certain population areas which are involved with western businesses and are experiencing increased financial status and thus have modernized their living status....electricity, indoor plumbing, flush toilets.
Again, not to be offensive but the fact that you moved to America shows that your family was better off financially than the vast majority in India.
If you don't mind my asking, did the places you lived in India have electricity, indoor plumbing and flush toilets?
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3398 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject:
sh8un wrote:
My Dr. told me that the chances of getting MS is higher when you move from a country where the disease is rare to a MS prone country at around age 12. Guess when I moved to Canada? That's right! I was 12. I am not really sure how he knows that but that's what he said. NN
Hi Neda, actually the age most associated with the move is 15 which was long ago derived from hard data. If there is anything good about MS it's that it's been around so long that there has been plenty of time for number crunching
After that, in the 1980's the hygiene hypothesis was postulated from similiar findings related to allergies and asthma and you might find investigating that interesting. Basically the idea is that early exposure to bacteria and viruses (and since that time, parasites) is essential to "train" the immature immune system and after the age of 15 the immune system should be mature enough to respond appropriately to whatever comes it's way. Some refer to MS as an "inappropriate immune response.
My "baby", the helminth immunomodulation thing, is an extension of the original hygiene hypothesis and is now generally thought to include allergy, asthma and those autoimmune diseases which drastically rose in incidence after the late 1900's....among those is MS.
In other words, your doctor might have been referring either to the MS hard data or the findings of the hygiene hypothesis.
Hey, thanks for including your history. I don't have anything so interesting to add. I've lived within 5 miles of here my whole life. The middle of the mitt.
If I may be so rude as to ask the same questions I asked namedbos. You moved at an early age so I guess it doesn't matter if your time in Iran and Turkey included flush toilets, but did it?
This from the NMSS website
Quote:
Migration from one geographic area to another seems to alter a person's risk of developing MS. Studies indicate that immigrants and their descendents tend to take on the risk level—either higher or lower—of the area to which they move. The change in risk, however, may not appear immediately. Those who move before the age of 15 tend to take on the new risk themselves. For those who move after the age of 15, the change in risk level may not appear until the next generation. While underlining the complex relationship between environmental and genetic factors in determining who develops MS, these studies have also provided support for the opinion that MS is caused by early exposure to some environmental trigger in genetically-susceptible individuals.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 295 Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:53 am Post subject:
Well...my family have always been germ freaks. I remember as a child in Iran, I used to call my mom to come and wash the sand on the beach so that I could play with in it .
Lyon...sorry to say this, but I have no idea what on earth you are asking. Flush toilets? Yeah...we had them. Is that what you wanted to know about?
The article says that moving before the age of 15 is what increases/decreases your risks. That was right for me.
NN
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: Answers
To answer the questions. I come from a fairly developed part of India in the capital . Delhi. So we had all modern amenities from early childhood. Although i would say that diseases such as Malaria etc. & Viral Fever were common while growing up compared to US. The things that we were not that common are allergies , cold etc. that one sees in the west. The other factor that has changed in the food which is usually always cooked fresh in India whereas in US , there are always some sauces etc. that are precooked or processed. Also one does not use the as much of the good spices etc. used in India like Turmeric.
Sunlight and warm weather are the other big changes in the N East US. It remains to be seen if moving back to a favorable environment will help at all
Joined: Sep 12, 2006 Posts: 874 Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:55 am Post subject:
The hot and cold thing is really weird with me as well. The heat will definitely flair my optic neuritis up every time. I also get more fatigued in the heat (I think everyone does to some degree). About two years ago I started noticing that the cold really, really had been bothering me. If I get cold and start to shiver, it can be so drastic that I can't even speak right.
One night some friends and I were on a boat late at night partying. It was cool out but the water was warm. Anyway, he pulled me in the water and when I got out I got chilled and started shivering uncontrollably. Everyone was very concerned because I had a hard time even talking I was shaking so bad. It was after this incident that I realize that while I don't have a heat intolerance, that is absolutely how I would describe how cold affects me. I also physically just feel very run down in the winter. I'm trying 4000 IU of D3 this winter and we'll see if it's vitamin D from the sun related or if it is something else.
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: Heat and cold
I have no problems with Heat . Cold of course is another matter , my body does not seem to like the levels below freezing at all. I have shivers often as well. Has there been any cases where someone's symptoms have improved after moving to warmer weather.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3398 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject:
sh8un wrote:
Lyon...sorry to say this, but I have no idea what on earth you are asking. Flush toilets? Yeah...we had them. Is that what you wanted to know about? The article says that moving before the age of 15 is what increases/decreases your risks. That was right for me.
NN
Hi Neda, thank you for the info. Without a doubt that seems pretty personal. Of course since I'm the parasite man, this all had to do with that.
To complete their life cycle and remain a sustainable entity the helminths eggs have to be......pooped on the ground and remain in warm, moist soil for 4-6 weeks. At that point the eggs (ova) can enter our systems through bare feet or orally by contaminating food sources. Here in the developed countries we tried, but didn't need to eradicate helminths. Flush toilets did them in.
I'm sure you've heard of the MS geographic gradient (also included allergy, asthma, other autoimmune diseases). Originally it's boundaries were clearly defined and restricted to Northern US, Northern Europe and Australia but in recent years researchers have noticed (and fretted over) the fact that it has lost it's definition. MS is being seen in places it historically has never been found.
It's happening before our eyes and it really is obvious that in "undeveloped" countries areas of higher income (flush toilets) and areas of increasing income (cities in India, etc. which are now doing business with the US and Europe and are changing to a "developed" lifestyle) are experiencing allergy, asthma and autoimmune diseases, even though their relatives a few miles away who don't have modern conviniences still carry the traditionally low risk which has always been normal for their country.
On the Ovamed forum a little while ago the owner (Detlev Goj) told me that Ovamed had gone in partnership with a company in Thailand to sell the swine whipworm in Thailand. I'm including my question to him and Detlev's response. Detlev does a great job with English considering he's German, but you'll notice he has minor problems with the language. Bob
Quote:
Hi Detlev,
I guess I'm a little taken aback by this situation.
I admit that I don't have specific knowledge about living conditions and lifestyle in Thailand but my naive assumption is that the place would be a breeding ground for helminths.
I guess I'm surprised that they even want TSO in Thailand. Do they even have a problem with autoimmune disease?
In the meantime I'm going to try to find out what I can but your insight would be appreciated.
Bob
Thailand has even own and really excellent gastroenterologies. Their physicians were educated in the US, Germany and elsewhere in western countries. Many people from western countries are living there. Industrialized zones like Bangkok, Phuket, Pattaya and Hua Hin are showing increased numbers of people with autoimmune diseases. Allergies and Diabetes are growing fast. Asian countries in opposite to western countries have a long history of dealing with natural medicines. While this is relatively new to western countries, especially in regard of regulations, they are very experienced and even carry a separate category of classification for these type of medicines, which western countries are still working on.
Another major difference is that the Thai Health authorities are very cooperative and supportive. Their constructive cooperation has helped a lot to fulfill regulations.
The Thai approval is of a great advantage to the TSO project. It is a lot easier for physicians worldwide to make use of an agent that has already an approval from acknowledged authorities, even though the approval is not from their own country. It will be possible to obtain the agent in Thailand commercially sometimes early next year.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3398 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Answers
namedbos wrote:
To answer the questions. I come from a fairly developed part of India in the capital . Delhi. So we had all modern amenities from early childhood. Although i would say that diseases such as Malaria etc. & Viral Fever were common while growing up compared to US. The things that we were not that common are allergies , cold etc. that one sees in the west.
Hi namedbos,
Thank you for the information I honestly appreciate it. My response to sh8un above about says it all but your mentioning not seeing allergies, etc...in India is a point well taken, although they are seeing them now in the progressive areas.
Scientists didn't realize until 1990 that the method helminth parasites survive in us was by chemically modulating our immune systems and I imagine that still isn't a commonly known fact.
I find it so frustrating that more immunologists don't find it immediately obvious that when humans have had immune regulating chemicals pumped into their systems throughout our entire evolution history and suddenly (in evolutionary terms) those chemicals are gone from our systems, coincidentally at the same times and places that allergies, asthma and autoimmune diseases started their dramatic rise (history is repeating itself at this moment in the "progressive" cities of traditionally "undeveloped" countries), it's hard to believe the association isn't obvious.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 295 Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject:
Lyon
I get it now...thanx for clarifying. I thought that was a funny questions but I was sure you were going somewhere with it. I was 9 when I left Iran but I don't ever remember a time(in my life time there) where there was no flush toilets. Like I said, my family was also big on being really really clean. I have grown up that way and I do think that my MS has partly to do with the fact that my immune system never experienced enough microorganisms to mature properly. Being a nurse, I am exposed to all kinds of infections and that doesn’t help things either. My aunt who is also a nurse in Iran (she is the head of the cardiology department in one of the hospitals. So she is really experienced and knows what she is talking about) says that MS is really on the rise in Iran. She also said that it seems to be affecting ppl of higher social class/education. So you may have something there.
Take care,
NN
Joined: Sep 12, 2006 Posts: 874 Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject:
This is a great thread because I'm learning about something that I had NO CLUE about (even if it talks about poop!). However, it leaves me with the same burning question I have about Aspartame. The question is this:
"If these theories are true, then why is it that there are many more people that consume this stuff, have used flush toilets their whole lives, haven't been as healthy as me (at least in all things except MS) that don't have MS and I do?"
Man that's a hard to read sentence, but do you get my point? I just wonder because there are SO many chemicals we eat and drink and if they are the trigger, then whey don't we all have MS?
I know these are unanswerable questions, but I just would like to know where to put my focus. The guy in the office across from me literally drinks a gallon of Diet Pepsi a day. He's a good friend of mine and I've seen him drink a six pack of 16 oz. bottles before lunch (he's also a big dude). In other words I'm ready for someone to figure it out! It would be a great idea to interview people with MS and get very detailed and make a matrix that can try and find a common thing that we all have done, ate, drank, been exposed to or had sex with. I normally don't throw stuff out like that because I'm not willing to be the one to gather the data. I don't like to bitch without offerring up a doable solution. I'm just frustrated and there are just so many theories that I can't keep up.
I'm glad there are people out there like Bob who put in the time so the rest of us can stay up to speed. Many thanks for your hours of research Bob.
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: Clarification
I think a few important points have been missed here about MS in the underdeveloped or developing countries. I am not convinced that the cases in the prosperour areas are on the rise. I am still in good contact wit folks back home and have not had any such impression. Heart disease may be another story.
The other point is that MS is not common as it may also be going undetected as MRI etc. is not available freely and is still not affordable for most of the population.
The second point may prove the first and address the contractions.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 295 Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject:
Loobie
I think that a lot of us believe that MS in not caused by just one thing. It is a combination of genes/exposure to god knows what/ environment. There are also many ppl on this website(myself included) that just guess as to what might cause MS. I have nothing against brainstorming but at times it’s very clear as to how fruitless these efforts are because it is so difficult to find a common reason between us all that would clearly explain why each of us has MS. A lot of us do not have the background to conclude what causes such a complicated illness and we want to simplify it. It just doesn't work that way.
We/you did not do anything to cause our MS. A lot of us have tried to lead healthy lives and we have made decision that we thought were best for us with the info that we had. I challenge all of us to start a topic. If we are to find out what is common between us and therefore make educated guesses as to what MIGHT be the cause of MS, then we should start a topic where each of us goes into great detail about where they are from, Life style choices and habits, stress level, medical hx, family hx, exposure to things we were not sure about, major life events, diet....i could go on. I think that is the only way. We expect scientists to share their info with each other...why shouldn't we do the same? We have more interest in finding a cause than they do.
NN
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: This would help
I would support starting such a topic. I think it would also help bring to the fore front some myths and possibly new symptoms of the disease. I think such an open discussion would be helpful.
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