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There are quite a few people of all races with MS.
It is true that white people in general are the majority.
But then again, women overtake men in numbers too.
I often wonder about the vitamin D factor. But I also wonder about the Candida factor. Perhaps there are more women than men with MS because Candida is more common in women (i.e. yeast infections, etc).
I truely believe (and I'm male obviously) that I have a yeast over growth in my intestines and guts and I think it's gone to a cellular level, which aint good. Why else would I stink after eating bread and sugar?
My mom, God bless 'er, got a little over zealous with putting me on antibiotics as a kid. In fact, I believe one of my old pediatricians warned her about putting me on too many antibiotics.
All the good germs died and left a yeasty mess in my guts.
And as the MS progressed, so did the odor.
For some time I was thinking it was metabolic related, but I've found someone else with the same problem and she was diagnosed with yeast overgrowth within her body.
It all makes sense now. If only my mom let me ride out the acne and colds, I may have been completely healthier person today
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3372 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject:
Hi AC,
Just a few insignificant points I would like to interject.
AC wrote:
but there are many interesting facts about the MCR1 (melanocortin receptor 1) gene. I just don't think we can discount it with the Viking label ...it has many ties to the MS population.
It shows up throughout Scotland, Ireland, and even northern India, Algeria and Pakistan...not just european "industrialized" nations. This gene is linked to northern latitudes, because it allows vitamin D production to occur in reduced sunlight. sound familiar?
This gene produces more pheomelanin chemicals, and is responsible for elevated levels of adrenaline and dopamine. It is involved in vitamin D production. It is responsible for a heightened response to pain, especially thermally induced pain. It is related to heat sensitivity. And yes, in some folks it shows up as red hair.
Respectfully, in over a hundred years and million upon millions of dollars of research, the researchers still aren't certain about anything in regards to MS. Despite that, we're supposed to believe that all or any of the above is anything more than suspicion??
If I had all the researcher suspicions in the world, and a dime, I'd only be 90 cents short of having enough to buy a cup of coffee
I just read a paper two nights ago in which the genetic researchers, almost apologetically, mentioned that MS isn't as simple as they once thought and that it's "one of those" diseases which involves many genes.
I personally can't think of an easier cop out for genetic researchers faced with failure, but unwilling to admit they were wrong, than to change their tune and say that "the situation is much more complicated than expected and involves multiple genes".
I don't know about anyone else but I would have to doubt the competence of an auto mechanic who told me that the problem with my auto was more complicated than he originally thought and that I should just allow him unlimited time, money and faith. The only choices are accepting his incompetence and continuing forward in some other way, or accepting his terms and facing my own incompetence.
AC wrote:
Japan is an industrialized society with a low incidence of MS. And there aren't alot of redheads, either.
Something the researchers are having a hard time accepting (obviously) is that MS, and whatever causes it, is not a static situation. Yes, Japan used to have low MS incidence levels. We also purposely kept Japan "undeveloped" for as long as possible after WWII. Are you old enough to remember Japan's initial attempts to join the "developed" world, when "Made in Japan" was the source of humor? The days before Toyota and Honda owned the US economy?? On the large scale, Japan can be considered (to date) the last of the "developed" countries to develop and (after the appropriate waiting period) their MS incidence is rising at an alarming rate.
When MS rates in Japan approach those seen in the US (as are the American Blacks who, according to the genetic rules, shouldn't have the "genetic predisposition"), THEN will you be willing to drop the genetic balderdash? Oh, that's right. Dr Compston now thinks that the American blacks have interbred enough that they too have the genetic predisposition.
Not to kill a dying horse, but the following seems especially important to single out
AC wrote:
It shows up throughout Scotland, Ireland, and even northern India, Algeria and Pakistan...not just european "industrialized" nations. This gene is linked to northern latitudes, because it allows vitamin D production to occur in reduced sunlight. sound familiar?
This is why my obsession continues to center on MS incidence....the changing MS incidence. Just a few short years ago you couldn't have correctly made the above statement. As late as the 1960's and 1970's MS was almost specifically isolated to Northern Europe, Northern America and Australia.
In the time since, Japan's economy has boomed and Japan can be considered "westernized". As mentioned earlier, increased MS rates in Japan are noted.
People in the US are well aware that Free trade has allowed US companies to ship our industry (and money) to cities in the places you mentioned (all have since experienced alarming increases in MS rates) as well as Mexico, Thailand and others you didn't name.
Rates of MS in the US are "unexplainably" approaching that of whites in the US. Anyone familiar with Martin Luther King, and the civil rights issue realizes that American Blacks have gained great strides in financial and living conditions (among the last of a "developed" population to "develop") and now, despite their not having the "genetic predisposition" are increasingly being stricken with MS.
It all gets back to something I mentioned a few months ago. As seems to be the case, if EVERYONE has the genetic predisposition (or the Nordic/Viking gene), should it really be considered a genetic predisposition?
Not picking on you AC, but I just couldn't pass on that really good chance for a rant
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with MS in Feb. 2006 and is a participant in the Tovaxin IIb clinical trial.
Joined: Sep 11, 2007 Posts: 665 Location: southern California
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:
OK, OK, Bob...
I'm a believer, I recant, I beg forgiveness....
I looked into the Japan info regarding MS incidence-
I may only say this once, so enjoy it. You're right, Bob.
''
Abstract:
Twenty-two years after the first survey, a follow-up study was performed on the prevalence of multiple sclerosis (MS) in Asahikawa, a city in northern Japan. The crude prevalence of MS rose from 2.5/100,000 (in 1975) to 10.2/100,000 (in 2002). Although prevalence of MS increase four-fold in Japan over the last two decades, it remains uncertain whether this apparent increase is real or reflects better ascertainment.
C'mon, Bob, can't you just play nice and let us have our red hair theory????
-AC _________________ Husband diagnosed RRMS March 2007
pursuing endothelial healing
Copaxone, Swank, supplements, laughter
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3372 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject:
cheerleader wrote:
I looked into the Japan info regarding MS incidence-
I may only say this once, so enjoy it. You're right, Bob. ''
I spend FAR too much time obsessed with MS but many times you have impressed me with your ability to quickly bring up appropriate articles
I'll pretend I didn't hear the part about my being........not quite wrong
cheerleader wrote:
C'mon, Bob, can't you just play nice and let us have our red hair theory????
Not to get serious on you, but like everyone else, in the past few years I've focused on literally EVERYTHING that is the least uncommon about my wife and tried to identify it as a commonality in those with MS. Like a surprising number of other factors, red hair "seems" over represented but isn't exclusive (100% of people with red hair don't have MS and 100% of people with MS don't have red hair).
I don't have MS so I can afford to be the spoiled brat who doesn't want half a bag of marbles, I want ALL the marbles. And one thing is certain, all the marbles do exist in one bag somewhere for the finding. Our not finding them doesn't mean that MS is owed to a hodge podge of scattered marbles, it means that after all these years and for all our conviction that we have looked everywhere, we obviously have yet to look into the place where the bag exists.
That's my long, drawn out way of saying that I'll do my darnedest to go along with the red haired theory.....as long as I get to rant every couple of months
AC wrote:
But here's a study showing lower MS incidence in Japanese-Americans. It is offered as evidence of possible lower susceptibility to MS in Japanese.
I was going to be a smart ass and post the article, but it's from 1977 and my access only goes back to 1998. Considering that MS incidence is based on evolving factors, what was true in 1977 might very well not be true today, but the article looks interesting and I'll read the paper version on Monday!
For some reason that brings to mind the old MS conundrum which was based on figures from 40 or 50 years ago in which Japanese Americans who migrated to Hawaii from Southern California found lower incidence of MS, yet Japanese migrating to Hawaii from Japan found higher MS incidence.
That one would give someone hooked on genetics loose stools.
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with MS in Feb. 2006 and is a participant in the Tovaxin IIb clinical trial.
Just for thought Japanese diet includes many fishes, many spices (as turmeric that inhibits experimental MS), no milk, no gluten foods (they eat rice), no processed meat etc, do they have low incidence due to their habits?
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3372 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:21 am Post subject:
DIM wrote:
Just for thought Japanese diet includes many fishes, many spices (as turmeric that inhibits experimental MS), no milk, no gluten foods (they eat rice), no processed meat etc, do they have low incidence due to their habits?
Since I'm the hygiene hypothesis guy, eating habits/lifestyle/environment is my thought on the matter Besides, logic says it has to be. Genetics aren't capable of changing that fast.
Really, the only real question is "what factor(s) involved with the process of "developing" changes to allow the inception of MS in the percentage of susceptible people, which exist in any population?"
Too bad the researchers seem not to have picked up on the fact that, since the situation has changed so dramatically and so recently, Japan is a wonderful research opportunity.
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with MS in Feb. 2006 and is a participant in the Tovaxin IIb clinical trial.
For some reason that brings to mind the old MS conundrum which was based on figures from 40 or 50 years ago in which Japanese Americans who migrated to Hawaii from Southern California found lower incidence of MS, yet Japanese migrating to Hawaii from Japan found higher MS incidence.
Why can't this mean that the Japanese-Americans at some time in the past were mated with someone with the MC1R gene and passed that gene along. For the next generations, going to Hawaii and being exposed to more sun would help. For the Japanese in Japan without that gene UNTIL they went to Hawaii and mated wiith an MC1R, going to Hawaii would have a negative effect for future generations. Now they are passing the MC1r gene.
And then there is this
Quote:
Red hair is caused by a recessive gene that can skip generations before reappearing, and it is also relatively rare.
And this is about skin cancer, but you'll see the importance...
Quote:
It's true that people with red hair, fair skin, and freckles have the highest risk.
But people who carry one gene for this high-risk trio also face an increased risk of skin cancer, even if their skin color is olive.
Those with two "red-hair" variants of the gene that codes for the melanocortin-1 receptor (MC1R) will have red hair, fair skin, and freckles--and have the highest risk for sun-induced skin cancer, Richard A. Sturm, Ph.D., said at the annual meeting of the American Society for Human Genetics. When only one of these variants is inherited, the person's skin color can be any one of a variety of hues, even shades that are usually considered relatively resistant to skin cancer. Even as a heterozygous allele, the "red-hair" variant of the MC1R gene boosts skin cancer susceptibility
I read somewhere in the last couple days about MC1R genes and the difference in the way people with that gene respond to bacteria, viruses, and yeast. I'll look for that again.
And this seems logical to me.
Quote:
Dr Compston now thinks that the American blacks have interbred enough that they too have the genetic predisposition.
And it seems to me that there must be a reason that
Quote:
Chasing the Viking gene is something that retired British research neurologists do in their retirement.
Quote:
It keeps them out of their wife's hair.
??
Or, they spend their last years trying to figure it out because they were convinced that they were onto something.
Quote:
Research is the process of going up alleys to see if they are blind.
Marston Bates
Conclusions: This is the first study to show a functional role of MC1R in intestinal inflammation. The data suggest a pivotal role of non-haematopoietic cell expressed MC1R in the host’s response to pathogenic stimuli.
Joined: Sep 11, 2007 Posts: 665 Location: southern California
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject:
pssst....Terry,
We're not going to change Bob's mind
He would agree with the genetic implication-
BUT he believes that the people with this gene began industrialized civilization
(which in turn created higher rates of MS)
thus his "which came first- chicken or the egg" analogy.
You n' me are chickens (squawk!)
and that makes Bob an egg head.
AC _________________ Husband diagnosed RRMS March 2007
pursuing endothelial healing
Copaxone, Swank, supplements, laughter
I'm quite sure we won't change his mind. But I'll tell ya' I know more about worms than I ever wanted to know! I didn't even know the word "helmynth" existed till I "met" Bob. At least our stories are of genes, and not some guy flying to the other side of the world to walk in CRAP!
I'm just playing, Bob. You are good to bounce ideas off of, even if you do rant about your friend the hookworm from time to time.
Really, I haven't dismissed Bob's theory, or any others, actually, but I'm kind of into this one. So far it makes sense, but you can tell not a lot of research has been done with its relation to MS. Mostly skin cancer stuff.
I walked an MS walk this morning- 5 miles- and since I'm an old, out of shape MSer, I'm now too lazy to do anything but sit. So, unless a movie draws my attention, you all may have to hear from me a few more times today.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3372 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject:
Terry wrote:
I'm quite sure we won't change his mind. But I'll tell ya' I know more about worms than I ever wanted to know! I didn't even know the word "helmynth" existed till I "met" Bob. At least our stories are of genes, and not some guy flying to the other side of the world to walk in CRAP!
AC wrote:
BUT he believes that the people with this gene began industrialized civilization
(which in turn created higher rates of MS)
thus his "which came first- chicken or the egg" analogy.
Despite the ribbing I'm taking , it's obvious you two have gotten the exact points I've been trying to make. Of course I'd like to convince people, but the best I can realistically hope for is to get people to listen and remember. In that regard it seems I've won, and I think you'll eventually find that you have too.
Again, it's as certain as anything in the world of MS can be, that there is a genetic aspect to MS. I'm not saying that genetics aren't involved, they are, but MS incidence isn't and, more importantly CAN'T hinge on genetic predisposition and in the same regard, a Viking gene per se. There almost certainly is an identifiable genetic aspect, but it won't have arisen in Northern Europe or in any of the scenarios that Dr Compston envisions.
With his genetic beliefs, what Dr Compston is trying to defy is the fact that genetics are not capable of changing at the speed and degree necessary to explain the rising incidence of MS. In the attempt to get around that, Dr Compston thinks there might be a Viking gene and the closest thing he has to support for his belief is racial mixing. Probably not scientifically justifiable even in the most favorable circumstance, which would be the "melting pot" USA and REALLY the "viking gene" goes over like a fart in church in every other aspect.
The recent rising incidence in blacks in the US?? I guess interbreeding "seems" plausible, although racial intermixing has always existed, why did increasing MS incidence only show up recently?
Rising MS incidence in mainland Japan?
Lordy! Instead of bringing in the sheaves, someone cut the cheese in church today! To this day Japan society is still very family oriented and VERY against intermingling. It's nothing more than ridiculous to think there is a viking gene going through mainland Japan.
If the viking gene really is so contagious why, in all this time, hasn't it spread through the Eskimos, Sami, Native Americans on reservations, Australian Aborigines (etc, etc..) despite their oftentimes sharing similar genetics to surrounding populations which have strikingly higher MS incidence?
There are people who have their minds made up and won't change their minds despite logic. I find it impossible to have respect for those kind of people. I want to find the answers to MS more than I want to prove myself right. I don't want to be one of those people who defy logic rather than admit they are wrong.
All I ask is overpowering evidence for genetic predisposition and/or viking gene. Hell, any evidence would do. I'm not hard to get along with
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with MS in Feb. 2006 and is a participant in the Tovaxin IIb clinical trial.
Joined: Mar 26, 2005 Posts: 590 Location: Northamptonshire, England.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:27 am Post subject:
Bob,
I can't help feeling you're being a bit disingenuous here. I don't think anybody is suggesting a 100% causal link between one gene, (most probably a group of genes), and MS and nobody is saying that all people with MS have red hair, or that all people with red hair have MS.… in the same way as not all people without helminths get MS
The possibility remains that a genetic trait may cause people to be vulnerable to any of the aspects of modern life that we've discussed many times – stress, diet, loss of parasites, etc. etc. – and is particularly visible in people of northern European descent. The term, " Viking gene" is convenient shorthand for a particular genetic sequence that appears to have become concentrated in regions of Finland some time before the 12th century, but that does not preclude the notion that the trait existed in populations of early hominids coming out of Africa, and remained hidden from sight in other populations until they "westernised" their lifestyles.
Incidentally, for what it's worth, my dad was Italian and died of skin cancer. _________________ Dom
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3372 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:54 am Post subject:
Hi Dom,
Whew, this is starting to get complicated!
Dom wrote:
I don't think anybody is suggesting a 100% causal link between one gene, (most probably a group of genes), and MS and nobody is saying that all people with MS have red hair, or that all people with red hair have MS.…
You're absolutely correct Dom, and my consideration of that has never lapsed.
The point I've tried to make is that Dr Compston is hung up on the conviction that because (he thinks) MS was first noticed in Northern Europe, that Northern Europe is where MS originated, thereby the "cause" of MS originated in Northern Europe.
Dr Compston obviously thinks the factor responsible for incidence is genetic and that it's appropriate to consider it a "Viking" gene.
I argue (with more facts to back me) that the gene, or collection of genes, have been existant in a percentage of the population since the beginning of life but never became a factor because environmental factors were favorable........until, for the first time in history, the environmental situation changed in Northern Europe and Northern America....which is now known as the industrial revolution and offered the monetary means for our populations to "develop".
What now seems an "unfortunate quirk" of fate is that the time and locations that conditions were right for the industrial revolution to happen, were the very locations peopled primarily by populations of light skinned people of nordic descent.
This situation was historically repeated again and again, regarding the clear association between high MS incidence/high light skinned people of nordic descent so that it seemed painfully obvious to researchers that "genetic predisposition" drove MS incidence, when in reality, light skinned whites drove the environmental changes necessary to expose the underlying genetic predisposition.
I hope that works because I can't put it much clearer than that. I'm a generous person and I don't care what Dr Compston calls his gene(s), but accuracy dictates that it would be called the Africa gene(s) .
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with MS in Feb. 2006 and is a participant in the Tovaxin IIb clinical trial.
In 1995 a landmark study demonstrated that over 80% of humans with red hair or fair skin have a dysfunctional variant of the Mc1r gene.[12]
This discovery provoked interest in determining why there is an unusual prevalence of red hair and pale skin in some northern European populations, specifically Britain and Ireland. The Out-of-Africa model proposes that modern humans originated in Africa and migrated north to populate Europe and Asia. It is most likely that these migrants had an active Mc1r variant and, accordingly, darker hair and skin (as displayed by indigenous Africans today). Concordant with the migration north, the selective pressure maintaining dark skin decreased as radiation from the sun became less intense. Thus variations in Mc1r began to appear in the human population, resulting in the paler skin and red hair of some Europeans.
Human skin color map, demonstrating the prevalence of pale skin in northern latitudes. Data for native populations collected by R. Biasutti prior to 1940Studies find no evidence for positive selection driving these changes. Instead, the absence of high levels of solar radiation in northern Europe relaxed the selective pressure on active Mc1r, allowing the gene to mutate into dysfunctional variants without reproductive penalty, then propagate by genetic drift.[13]
The reason for the unusually high numbers of dysfunctional Mc1r variants in certain human populations is not yet known, though sexual selection for red hair has been proposed.[14]
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Please and thanks!
'
, it's obvious you two have gotten the exact points I've been trying to make. Of course I'd like to convince people, but the best I can realistically hope for is to get people to listen and remember. In that regard it seems I've won, and I think you'll eventually find that you have too.
why, in all this time, hasn't it spread through the Eskimos, Sami, Native Americans on reservations, Australian Aborigines (etc, etc..) despite their oftentimes sharing similar genetics to surrounding populations which have strikingly higher MS incidence?
.