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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Salvia miltiorrhiza, scutellaria baicalensis,curcumin,chilli
I started taking 10.8g of salvia miltiorrhiza and 10.8g of scutellaria baicalensis about 4 weeks ago. This was in addition to the 7.2g of curcumin and about 2g of capsaicin that I've been taking for some time. When I added the salvia and scutellaria I immediately noticed an improvement in the tingling that had increased since adding the capsaicin. In fact after 24hours the tingling had almost halted. Since then my walking is stronger and the daily exercises are easier. I have not even had the threat of night spasms. The tingling is virtually absent and I feel very strongly that the salvia and scutellaria additions are the cause of this improvement which seems to be increasing incrementally each day. There is a stack of pubmed data on both of these herbs and the salvia is particularly interesting as it inhibits a blod clot protein that is found in ms lesions. There is research supporting this somewhere on this site but I have to find it again! _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
Yes 10g! I had been taking about 5g (ie 3 600mg pills 3 times daily) from herbalextractsplus but hadn't noticed very much, I then doubled this amount to 3pills 6 times daily. I haven't yet had a liver function test to check that this is okay. But the effect on the tingling has been extraordinary. I note that in my Chinese medicine book most herbs are said not to be toxic in doses up to 15g daily.
Here's the link to the topic in the drugs regimen
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-5139.html _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
I've just realized that I have incorrectly stated that I started the salvia about 4 weeks ago. In fact I only upped the dose on return from Austria,towards the end of August. The improvements have been so sudden that it seems incredible that I haven't been taking the herbs for longer. I have only been taking the increased dose of salvia and scutellaria for about 2 weeks.
I think I shall shortly reduce the amounts taken, not least because it's a pain to take so many pills. I hope that if I reduce to 2 600mg pills 6 times a day which would give me 7.2g of the salvia and scutellaria I will still see good results. Fingers crossed. _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
Thanks for this cureo! I certainly shall have a look through pubmed. I reckon herbs are effective but only in largeish quantities and taken with bioperine (black pepper).
Now interesting, very interestingly, I stopped taking the capsaicin 2.75 days ago. I have noticed an INCREASE in night tingling and spasms since then, especially last night after I reduced the salvia and scutellaria from 10.8g to 9g. This could be yesterday's addition of nettle but my hunch is that the capsaicin and the salvia are having a pronounced effect on the blood coagulation/platelet formation and that it is these effects which so drastically reduced the tingling/stiffness etc 2 weeks ago.
Fortunately have just managed to visit the fertility specialist who suspects that my progesterone and other hormone levels are fine and that the generalist doctor wasn't counting the days right. I am therefore straight back on the capsaicin!! I also want to see if the tingling and spasms now disappear. This is a fun experiment.
Here's some stuff on platelets MS:
[quote]1: J Neuroinflammation. 2008 Jun 27;5:27. Links
Evidence of platelet activation in multiple sclerosis.Sheremata WA, Jy W, Horstman LL, Ahn YS, Alexander JS, Minagar A.
Multiple Sclerosis Center and Department of Neurology Miller School of Medicine, University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. sheremaw@bellsouth.net
OBJECTIVE: A fatality in one multiple sclerosis (MS) patient due to acute idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP) and a near fatality in another stimulated our interest in platelet function abnormalities in MS. Previously, we presented evidence of platelet activation in a small cohort of treatment-naive MS patients. METHODS: In this report, 92 normal controls and 33 stable, untreated MS patients were studied. Platelet counts, measures of platelet activation [plasma platelet microparticles (PMP), P-selectin expression (CD62p), circulating platelet microaggragtes (PAg)], as well as platelet-associated IgG/IgM, were carried out. In addition, plasma protein S activity was measured. RESULTS: Compared to controls, PMP were significantly elevated in MS (p < 0.001) and CD62p expression was also markedly elevated (p < 0.001). Both are markers of platelet activation. Platelet-associated IgM, but not IgG, was marginally elevated in MS (p = 0.01). Protein S in MS patients did not differ significantly from normal values. CONCLUSION: Platelets are significantly activated in MS patients. The mechanisms underlying this activation and its significance to MS are unknown. Additional study of platelet activation and function in MS patients is warranted.
link
Salvia may counter this PMP elevation as it inhibits platelet aggregation:
[quote]1: Am J Chin Med. 2008;36(2):313-28. Links
Interaction of salvianolic acids and notoginsengnosides in inhibition of ADP-induced platelet aggregation.Yao Y, Wu WY, Liu AH, Deng SS, Bi KS, Liu X, Guo DA.
Shanghai Research Center for Modernization of Traditional Chinese Medicine, Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Shanghai, China.
Salvia miltiorrhiza and Panax notoginseng were both considered to be beneficial to cardiovascular diseases in traditional Chinese medicine and often used in combination. To examine the possible interaction between them, the effects of the active fractions of these two herbs, salvianolic acids (SA) and notoginsengnosides (NG), on platelet aggregation were checked respectively or in combination in vitro and in vivo. Both the platelet aggregation of platelet rich plasma (PRP) and washed platelet after ADP induction were checked. In vitro study showed that both SA and NG had an inhibitory effect on platelet aggregation. However, there is no synergistic effect of the combination of SA and NG in vitro. In vivo study showed that i.g. 550 mg/kg/day SA or NG for 5 days could significantly inhibit ADP-induced platelet aggregation of PRP. Moreover, combination of SA and NG at a ratio of 5:1 had a synergistic effect on platelet aggregation of PRP. The mechanism for the synergism of SA and NG in vivo was not clear. High performance liquid chromatography analysis of the plasma of rats received SA, NG or combination of SA and NG showed that co-administration of NG caused change in the plasma distribution profile of SA. The influence of combination on the absorption and/or metabolism of SA may be one of the reasons for the synergism of SA and NG in vivo.
link
from wikipedia today 10/9/08:
Quote:
Platelets, or thrombocytes, are the cells circulating in the blood of mammals that are involved in hemostasis leading to the formation of blood clots. Like red blood cells, platelets have no nucleus.
(Primary hemostasis is the immediate response to injury, which involves platelets. Secondary hemostasis is the next response to injury, which involves other components of the clotting system.)
If the number of platelets is too low, that can cause bleeding. If the numbers of platelets is too high, that can cause blood clots (thrombosis) which block blood vessels, and cause strokes and heart attacks. An abnormality or disease of the platelets is called a thrombocytopathy[1] which could be either a low number (thrombocytopenia), a decrease in function (thrombasthenia) or an increase in number (thrombocytosis).
Platelets are produced in blood cell formation (thrombopoiesis) by budding off from megakaryocytes. This process is regulated by thrombopoietin, a hormone usually produce by liver and kidney. Each megakaryocyte produces between 5,000 and 10,000 platelets.
Platelets circulate for approximately one week, and are then destroyed by the spleen and by Kupffer cells in the liver.
Functions of Platelets can be generalised into a number of categories:
[edit] Activation
The inner surface of blood vessels is lined with a thin layer of endothelial cells. Under the endothelial layer is a layer of collagen. When the endothelial layer is injured, the collagen is exposed.
When the platelets contact collagen, they are activated. They are also activated by thrombin (primarily through PAR-1), ADP receptors (P2Y1 and P2Y12) expressed on platelets. They can also be activated by a negatively charged surface, such as glass.
Once activated, they release coagulation factors and platelet activating factors. These substances are normally stored in one of two cytoplasmic granules:
either the dense granules (containing ADP or ATP, calcium and serotonin)
or the α-granules (containing platelet factor 4, PDGF, fibronectin, B-thromboglobulin, vWF, fibrinogen, and coagulation factors V and XIII).
Platelet activation further results in the scramblase-mediated transport of negatively charged phospholipids to the platelet surface. These phospholipids provide a catalytic surface (with the charge provided by phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylethanolamine) for the tenase and prothrombinase complexes.
Platelet aggregation is the clumping of platelets together, using fibrin as the connecting agent. Activated platelets have fibrin receptors on their surfaces. Platelet adhesion is the process of platelets sticking to the damaged inner surface of the vessel wall. Adhesion can occur because collagen in the vessel wall is exposed when the endothelial surface lining the vessel is breached, and activated platelets have collagen receptors on their surfaces. Aggregation and adhesion act together to form the platelet plug. The high concentration of myosin and actin filaments in platelets are stimulated to contract during aggregation, further reinforcing the plug.
The most abundant platelet aggregation receptor is glycoprotein (GP) IIb/IIIa; this is a calcium-dependent receptor for fibrinogen, fibronectin, vitronectin, thrombospondin and von Willebrand factor (vWF). Other receptors include GPIb-V-IX complex (vWF) and GPVI (collagen).
Platelet aggregation is stimulated by ADP, thromboxane and α2 receptor-activation, but inhibited by other inflammatory products like PGI2 and PGD2.
[edit] Cytokine signalling
Besides being the chief cellular effector of hemostasis, platelets are rapidly deployed to sites of injury or infection and potentially modulate inflammatory processes by interacting with leukocytes and by secreting cytokines, chemokines and other inflammatory mediators[3] [4] [5] [6].
It also secretes e.g. platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF).
capsaicin inhibits platelet aggregation:
Quote:
1: Eur J Pharmacol. 1991 Sep 4;202(1):129-31. Links
Inhibition of platelet aggregation by capsaicin. An effect unrelated to actions on sensory afferent neurons.Hogaboam CM, Wallace JL.
Faculty of Medicine, University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
The effects of capsaicin on the ability of platelets to aggregate in response to thrombin, platelet-activating factor or calcium ionophore (A23187) were examined. At concentrations previously shown to activate sensory afferent neurons, capsaicin markedly inhibited the responsiveness of platelets to the three agonists. The effects of capsaicin on platelet aggregation were reversible, and could be observed if capsaicin was added after platelets had begun to aggregate in response to the agonist. Capsaicin did not affect the shape change which occurs in response to the agonists, a process which is calcium-independent. These results demonstrate that capsaicin, at concentrations which are frequently used to 'selectively' activate sensory afferent neurons, is also capable of affecting the function of the platelet. Such non-specific effects of capsaicin must be considered when this substance is used as a pharmacological probe of sensory afferent nerve function.
link _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Salvia inhibits endothelin 1 which is massively overexpresse
Salvia inhibits endothelin 1 which is massively overexpressed in MS patients:
Quote:
1: J Neuroophthalmol. 2001 Mar;21(1):37-8. Links
Increased endothelin-1 plasma levels in patients with multiple sclerosis.Haufschild T, Shaw SG, Kesselring J, Flammer J.
University Eye Clinic, Basel, Switzerland.
OBJECTIVE: We tested the hypothesis that the plasma level of endothelin-1 (ET-1) is increased in patients with multiple sclerosis (MS). The peptide ET-1 is one of the most potent known vasoconstrictors. An increased level of endothelin could explain some of the vascular symptoms of these patients. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A specific radioimmunoassay was used to determine ET-1 plasma levels. Twenty patients with MS were compared to 20 age- and sex-pair-matched healthy subjects. RESULTS: The plasma ET-1 levels were, on average, 224% higher in the patients with MS than in the controls (p < 0.005). The mean ET-1 levels (mean +/- standard deviation [SD]) were 3.5 +/- 0.83 pg/mL (min 2.13, max 5.37 pg/mL) in patients with MS and 1.56 +/- 0.3 pg/mL (min 0.9, max 2.13 pg/mL) in healthy volunteers. Neither the different forms nor stages of MS had an influence on the results. The ET-1 level was also not correlated with the duration of the disease. CONCLUSIONS: The plasma ET-1 level is markedly and significantly increased in patients with MS. Neither the cause of such an increase nor the pathogenetic role is known.
1: Biochim Biophys Acta. 2006 Jan;1760(1):1-9. Epub 2005 Oct 3. Links
Cryptotanshinone inhibits endothelin-1 expression and stimulates nitric oxide production in human vascular endothelial cells.Zhou Z, Wang SQ, Liu Y, Miao AD.
Laboratory of Biotechnology, Beijing Institute of Radiation Medicine, Taiping road 27#, Haidian district, Beijing 100850, PR China.
The Chinese herb Salvia miltiorrhiza (SM) has been found to have beneficial effects on the circulatory system. In the present study, we investigated the effects of cryptotanshinone (derived from SM) on endothelin-1 (ET-1) expression in human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVECs). The effect of cryptotanshinone on nitric oxide (NO) in HUVECs was also examined. We found that cryptotanshinone inhibited basal and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) stimulated ET-1 secretion in a concentration-dependent manner. Cryptotanshinone also induced a concentration-dependent decrease in ET-1 mRNA expression. Cryptotanshinone increased basal and TNF-alpha-attenuated NO production in a dose-dependent fashion. Cryptotanshinone induced a concentration-dependent increase in endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) expression without significantly changing neuronal nitric oxide synthase (nNOS) expression in HUVECs in the presence or absence of TNF-alpha. NOS activities in the HUVECs were also induced by cryptotanshinone. Furthermore, decreased ET-1 expression in response to cryptotanshinone was not antagonized by the NOS inhibitor l-NAME. A gel shift assay further showed that TNF-alpha-induced Nuclear Factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB) activity was significantly reduced by cryptotanshinone. These data suggest that cryptotanshinone inhibits ET-1 production, at least in part, through a mechanism that involves NF-kappaB but not NO production.
PMID: 16289876 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
I take 10.8g daily. _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
Recently I reduced the levels of salvia to 5.4g daily but after about 3 days of this I noticed a return of the tingling and stiffness. I think that one needs more than just 5.4g of salvia a day. I am now increasing to between 7.2g to 9g a day. I weigh about 57kg. amazing. I think salvia may be really effective in treating MS.
Cureo, I like the look of all those herbs in your supplement. How much are you taking? _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
I have been enjoying quite a wild experiment with the salvia. When I increased the dose of salvia to 10.8g I experienced a major reduction in night pain, an improvement in walking and bladder control. About a week later I increased the dose to 14.2grams daily. However I then started to notice a pain in the kidney area and greater difficulty walking, more night spasms etc. So I have now halved the dose to 7.2g. When I halved the dose within hours I experienced an improvement in spasticity and walking ability. I'm still not sure what the optimum dose is but it's definitely lower than 14.2g. _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
I expect they don't recommend more than one or two pills a day as well but without experimentation I won't know anything about the drug. For instance when I started taking the salvia at 9 pills a day which amounted to 5.4g a day I didn't notice anything. When I doubled that amount to 10.8g a day I really noticed an improvement in 24hours. Thus was I able to determine that it is effective! However I suspect that prolonged high dosage use is bad especially after my 14g experience.
Last night on 7.2grams per day I had no pain in my legs at night! But I had a few spasms which were easily dealt with by extra curcumin. Today I shall go back to 5.4g and see if there are spasms.
When I woke up this am my leg was back to being stiff but after an hour of taking salvia the stiffness is improving. This may be coincidence but that first day and following weeks on the 10.8g of salvia makes me think otherwise.
I wonder whether I should go off the salvia altogether for a month and then resume like the company says. After all I noticed nothing on 5.4g when I first started taking it. Mmm. Interesting. _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
Joined: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 145 Location: Colorado
Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:06 am Post subject:
gibbledygook -
Are you aware of the hallucinogenic effect of salvia? A few months ago I had read an article about teens using salvia as a drug. Below is a link to one article - if you google "salvia teenagers" you will get more hits. Just thought this might be of interest to you.
Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Salvia
wrote:
Are you aware of the hallucinogenic effect of salvia? A few months ago I had read an article about teens using salvia as a drug. Below is a link to one article - if you google "salvia teenagers" you will get more hits. Just thought this might be of interest to you.
It looks like that may be a different species, i.e., Salvia miltiorrhiza vs. Salvia divinorum.
Yes, alas there have been no hallucinogenic effects from salvia miltiorrhiza. Only effects on the MS vasculature!
So I have been trying a combination of salvia and gingko biloba which seems a good combination. I am now taking 3.6g of salvia and 3.6g of gingko daily. Both of these herbs have vasodilatory effects but I would guess that salvia is more of an endothelin 1 inhibitor whilst gingko is more of a vascular endothelial growth factor inhibitor. Both of which we want to lower. My last 2 days experience on these both has been good and the tingling/deteriorations which I noticed on high dose (14g) salvia have been significantly reduced. There is definitely something about these herbs which is important in MS. Getting the right dose is going to be an awkward journey. But I think it will be worthwhile. I think maybe my going on high dose salvia means I now only need rather a small maintenance amount. Looking at pubmed it seems that herbs often have one effect at a low dose and opposite effect on a high dose. So, somewhat confusing, but hobbling my way to improvements. For example, this morning, I took my herbs at 8:30 am and was fine until a short walk around 11:45am when the tingling returned. So I took some more herbs and about now the tingling has gone right down even though I have just done another short walk to test the improvement. (Walking tends to produce tingling in my left leg). _________________ 1st traceable symptoms Jan 01, last edss by doctor 6.5. Feeling better on ginkgo, salvia, capsaicin, curcumin, scutellaria. Interested in other vascular strengthening herbs; pycnogenol, butcher's broom, horsechestnut, centenella, hersperidin
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