Alcoholic Polyneuropathy

[Luvsadonut]

Hi all,
As I was diagnosed with MS shortly after being told I had secondary liver damage due to years of excessive alcohol consumption, I always thought that the 2 could be linked. Very early after been diagnosed, before I had any symptoms, after having a few drinks I would be unable to walk due to my legs going into overdrive and forcing me to run, bearing in mind that this was my only issue it seemed bizarre but not too worrying at the time. My main symptoms now are walking and balance issues where I can walk for approx 1 mile before my legs are too heavy/stiff to continue, however, when I do have a rare drink the effects of alcohol means that after only a drink or 2 my legs are so heavy and stiff that only a very short distance (50/100 metres) can be completed. I recently read a few online articles about alcoholic neuropathy and found that the symptoms are similar to MS, I have made an appointment with my doctor to discuss the issue. I really wanted to raise the issue here to see if anyone has looked into this or if anyone has any thoughts on it.

p.s...the alcohol abuse was when I was young and carefree....a beautiful wife and gorgeous little girl has stopped all that!

thanks folks.

[jimmylegs]

heya. zinc is low in ms. alcohol consumption reduces zinc. zinc can actually repair liver cirrhosis from alcohol consumption.

your level should be close to 18 umol/L in order to match healthy controls in societies that don't eat much gluten (people that are healthy but eat gluten foods have lower zinc because gluten is a zinc drain).

ms patients also have low uric acid. in some cases without enough zinc the liver can't properly convert ammonia by-products of digestion, into urea. uric acid normal range is 140-360 umol/l. ms average is 194 (~160 in relapse, ~230 in remission). healthy controls sit around 290-300. i tried for years to get my uric acid up with diet but when i discovered the zinc/uric acid connection, my bloodwork shows that fixing the zinc problem fixed the uric acid problem. i was 194 or lower for years. with zinc bumped up from 8.6 to 16.1 umol/l, uric acid shot up to 278.

uric acid is a powerful natural anti-oxidant. it's only when lifestyle dynamics lead to too much, that you end up with probs like gout.

ms patients also typically have low vitamin d3. when i fixed my zinc deficiency, my d3 absorption tripled (in hindsight, there is more evidence for d3 effects the work done on magnesium status around the same time period). ie with the same d3 dose, serum value went from 100 to 270 (above 250 is not good by the way), when i was expecting to get up to 150.

i had been zinc deficient from being vegan (no zinc inputs from meat), eating lots of wheat foods (gluten drain) and lots of legumes (phytates impair zinc absorption) AND alcohol consumption (another zinc drain) so my level was down below the normal range (which varies but locally the regional ref is 11.5-18.5 umol/L). i was at 8.6.

(update re magnesium: i realize in hindsight after correcting low mag that i had likely been in deficit since high school, based on high activity levels, subpar diet and chronic symptoms. later, choosing less and less useful sources of mag in diet over time (eg not enough nuts/seeds/leafy greens as a vegan), followed by adding high dose d3 after dx, inflicted quite a hit on my magnesium status. rebuilding tissue mag stores likely had more to do with the more recent improvements to d3 dose response than the zinc.)

hope that helps

[leetz]

just how much zinc/magnesium should one take per day???or better yet what did u find to be helpful for you? any new recipe's????

[jimmylegs]

hey there, without a blood test and a review of lifestyle habits, it's hard to say what an individual's dose should be.

i do eat zinc rich foods now including red meat. i take zinc 50mg/d (it has 2mg copper in it to maintain proper zn:cu balance). i still eat gluten and legumes so i probably need that much. at 50mg/d my level stays in the high teens but does not get too high. someone who ate no gluten or legumes probably would not need that much.

for magnesium i try to eat magnesium rich foods. i never used to eat anywhere near enough dark leafy greens, or nuts, etc. i try to ensure serum value at least 0.90 mmol/L. normal range is 0.70-1.10 mmol/L. i can feel it when my level gets down into the .80 range. ladies, if you experience menstrual cramping you probably don't have enough magnesium in your system.

FYI, magnesium is good to take with d3, but not only with d3. some must be taken separate from d3 or negative side effects can result. that's a long story i won't get into here!

here's the long story of the day: the most absorbable form of magnesium i have found is magnesium glycinate or magnesium bisglycinate. i used to like to take magnesium before bed, but with this form that is not advisable. at least not in my case. magnesium is supposed to absorb in the lower intestine. my anecdotal experience is this: once i switched to mag glycinate i developed a horrible cough. i did not connect the cough to the form of magnesium for about a year. my doctor diagnosed acid reflux. i was tested and the dx was confirmed, although the technicians had never heard a cough like mine. i got a brochure from the doctor which listed ways to help deal with acid reflux. there was a list of things that relax the lower oesophageal sphincter. i read that and finally the light went on. the supplement was so easily absorbed that it was affecting tissue while still in my stomach. i took a break from magnesium supplementation, and when i re-started i made sure to take the magnesium before a large meal. this modification got rid of the cough. it was TERRIBLE while it lasted, and i'm glad it's over now

the usual recommendation for daily mag for ms patients is 600-1200mg per day .. personally i cannot tolerate that much - i eat magnesium rich foods and my supplement delivers 150mg elemental magnesium per day.

as for new recipes hmm let me think... i will ponder and post something in my regimens thread. i have garlic mustard / basil pesto on the brain right now, but that's a bit of a weird topic

[Filmmaker]

i am convinced that MS is hard on the liver, wheter cause or consequence... I also became absolutely intolerant to alcohol since diagnosis but I wonder if MS is not linked to a blood pathogen (or maybe an opportunistic infection that progresses if our immune system is too low due to MS or sth else.. i suggest that because cancer patients also can develop severe neuropathy...) and as the liver is responsible for filtering blood, it becomes overwhlemed thus the fatigue, allergic reactions, weekness...

[shucks]

I have always been a pretty regular drinker, and in the last 6 months, since my symptoms started, I too have become both much less tolerant, and have the worst hangovers of all time. It feels like I've been poisoned or something after just a few drinks. I really like finding out that I'm not alone in that symptom. I wish you the best in your quest for answers.

[Luvsadonut]

as the liver is responsible for filtering blood, it becomes overwhlemed thus the fatigue, allergic reactions, weekness...

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if my liver disfunction was playing a part with my symptoms, its just how finding out how much of a part and how it plays the part which is the million dollar question. I think the reason my legs have reacted so obviously to alcohol surely means there as link to my MS legs symptoms, but is that zinc, iron, B12, dehydration, alcohol toxicity...I have no idea...hence the post.

zinc is low in ms. alcohol consumption reduces zinc. zinc can actually repair liver cirrhosis from alcohol consumption

Although Ive followed a high protein diet for years Ive started to take zinc supplements (aswell as mag and D3), after your posts pointed me in the right direction - thanks! Actually, could I PM you regarding nutrition and supplements? Yours and Leonard's posts are very enlightening!

Im not sure how Id be low in Uric acid bearing in mind I eat a lot of high purine foods..

[jimmylegs]

heya sure you can pm me. i ate high purine foods for a couple years trying to get my uric acid up, and it did not work. zinc was the missing link needed to get my urea cycle back in action.

FYI eating high purine foods without having enough zinc in the mix (and by 'mix' i mean 'liver'), just leaves you with too much un-dealt with ammonia floating around in your system.

"Toxic accumulation of ammonia in the blood is also seen in alcoholic liver disease and may account for some of the delirium tremen symptoms. It has also been found that ammonia can accumulate in the blood as a consequence of intestinal stasis and a "toxic bowel" reaction."

ZINC DEFICIENCY CAUSING HYPERAMMONEMIA AND ENCEPHALOPATHY IN A SICKLE CELL PATIENT
http://meeting.chestpubs.org/cgi/conten ... 36/4/37S-d
"Zinc deficiency in adult patients with sickle cell disease was first reported in 1975. A variety of clinical manifestations of this disorder were then attributed to zinc deficiency. One of its rare clinical manifestation is hyperammonemia related encephalopathy... During the course of her evaluation she was found to have an ammonia level of 437 micromoles per liter (umol/L)... [JL: ?!?!? they put an alpha symbol to represent micro in the abstract??]. The zinc level was found to be 50 microgram per deciliter. In addition to standard therapy with lactulose, zinc therapy was initiated and ammonia level started trending down..."

to get 50 mcg/dL into my units i have to multiply by the conversion factor .153 which gives us.... 7.65 umol/L. ooh that is bad, she's got me beat i was only 8.6 umol/L (still horrible)

Hyperammonemia induces neuroinflammation that contributes to cognitive impairment in rats with hepatic encephalopathy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20303348

all right and for ammonia .... "The normal range is 15 - 45 micrograms per deciliter (mcg/dL)." dammit why do i have to convert everything in order to interpret this stupid study! looks like, divide by .587 to get ... an astounding 745 mcg/dL wow.

well, i guess that explains why i was so damned stupid when i was zinc deficient. i could barely drive... ZERO short term memory. my ammonia levels must have been nearly as terrible.