Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

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CaveMan
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by CaveMan » Wed May 01, 2013 10:05 pm

Well the first point is that just about any diet will be better than that prescribed by CW, in this case the Diabetes association. So the way I see this study is a bit like the studies that show whole grains are healthy, if you take time to look at those studies they are only comparing whether whole grains are healthier than refined grains, so the conclusion really is whole grains are healthier than refined grains.
So are Grains healthier than No grains, well we don't know because not enough large controlled studies have been done to determine this.
Likewise a Vegan diet is certainly healthier than the diabetes assoc. diet, is it the healthiest diet possible, in my mind not.
When I started looking at diets I did look at the vegan style and vegetarian cancer style diets as well and determined they were on the fringe of nutrition, yes they can be done, but they are borderline, particularly the Vegan aspect which requires supplimentation of Vitamin B12 and the Omega 3 DHA in particular, any diet which requires supplimentation in my mind is not complete, the other issue with the Vegan diet is it is based on a non nutritional ideology, so the diet is secondary to the primary goal of not harming animals, in reality this is not far different to the USDA food pyramids goal of selling annual agricultural production and not to achieve optimum nutrition.
By the way always worth a look at the study authors background, the study title does not always reveal the underlying drivers, whether intentional or not the authors personal opinions are often reflected in the interpretation of the results. Full text link below:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/
And the author is:Neal D Barnard
Acknowledgments.
NDB is president of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and the Cancer Project, organizations that promote the use of low-fat, plant-based diets, and writes books and gives lectures about therapeutic diets, including vegan diets. He is the author of Dr. Neal Barnard's Program for Reversing Diabetes and receives royalties from its sales. None of the other authors had any personal or financial conflict of interest.
So there is already an inherent study bias, not saying the data is manipulated, but interpretations and language may be skewed.

As for my going Paleo it was looking at all the foods we eat that are most damaging potentially and reducing or eliminating from my diet, they primarily consist of Grains, Soy, Omega 6 veg oils, Dairy (except yoghurt) and reducing intake of other legumes.
The biggest bridge for most people to cross is the saturated fat issue because it has been so maligned over the last 50 years.
The fact is the "Lipid Hypothesis" which say's basically "saturated fat intake raises cholesterol and causes heart disease" and has formed the basis of our dietary recommendations, is wrong.
It was never more than a hypothesis, in those 50 years there have been thousands of studies done to "answer the question once and for all" and not one has proven the hypothesis, the saddest part is the data that has been collected and now being mined for other information and it is slowly coming to light that those with higher saturated fat intake and higher cholesterol actually had the lowest "All Cause Mortality", so the hypothesis was not just wrong, it was more or less completely opposite.
Once you get over the fear of eating animal fats & red meat, the rest is smooth sailing.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.

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CureOrBust
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by CureOrBust » Sun May 05, 2013 2:23 am

I never thought of this before, but it seems so obvious now. :oops:

A few months back, I saw a documentary (on exercise I think) that had a section where the doctors tested the presenters insulin resistance by making him drink a sugary liquid, and then measuring his blood glucose levels every X minutes, and then plotting his results against a "standard curve". They found he was borderline.

Anyway, my father is also borderline in his old age, and has a self monitor / measuring sugar level device. So, today I played with it :wink:

Directly after lunch (which included white rice and a sugary drink, apple juice), about 10-15 minutes I took a reading. It measured 8.0mmol/L (or 144mg/dL in metric). After two hours (post prandial), I pricked my finger again, and checked the level, it came up as 5.0mmol/L (or 90mg/dL in metric). From what I can gather from this website (http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes_care ... anges.html), it would seem OK to me.

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lyndacarol
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Sun May 05, 2013 10:24 am

It is a good idea to be aware of one's glucose level, especially if your father has this problem, CureOrBust. I think it was very smart of you to borrow your dad's monitor and conduct your own glucose test!

Now, you know what I'm going to say, don't you? The glucose test alone cannot indicate insulin resistance; as always, I encourage you to get a proper insulin test, too. I am convinced that people with MS diagnosis and symptoms will have a "fasting blood insulin test" result higher than 5 UU/ML (the optimal level is 3 UU/ML or lower).

CaveMan
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by CaveMan » Sun May 05, 2013 2:27 pm

Just to add to that, three seperate factors to test
Fasting Insulin
Fasting Glucose
Glucose Tolerence/Insulin Sensitivity

and I'd add one more
Fasting Leptin (this one is pay for, about $35), Leptin is most likely the first one to dysfunction.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.

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CureOrBust
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by CureOrBust » Mon May 06, 2013 4:40 am

lyndacarol wrote:.. especially if your father has this problem ...
My father was just under borderline, so they got him to monitor and watch his diet, for prevention purposes. My father is also a lot older, err... fatter... and has not looked after his health while younger. He previously had a cholesterol issue (and a double bypass) but now his blood test comes out with cholesterol readings below the "healthy range" provided by the lab; without drugs. My mother has him on a tight leash :twisted:

Interestingly, for the diabetes they actually have him taking a pill twice a day. I forgot to ask what it was :confused:

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lyndacarol
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Mon May 06, 2013 4:35 pm

CureOrBust wrote:...My mother has him on a tight leash :twisted:

Interestingly, for the diabetes they actually have him taking a pill twice a day. I forgot to ask what it was :confused:
I like your mother already.

The diabetes drug-I'll bet it is Metformin (brand name in the US is Glucophage).

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CureOrBust
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by CureOrBust » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:09 pm

Stumbled on the following while looking into something totally unrelated, and was a little surprised I hadn't heard of it before with all the media going loopy about sugar and the GI of foods.
Guar gum can slow down glucose absorption and reduce the incidence of postprandial (after eating) hypotension.
http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/health/re ... -pressure/

The actual link has nothing to do with Insulin or MS or provide any further info, I just included it for a reference, so don't waste your time to read it. 8)


---=== edit ===---
OK, I did a quick look in google to see if it is a well known fact, and clicked on one of the links.
Because the rate of absorption of glucose is decreased, this feature is helpful in diabetics. However, your insulin or diabetic medication may need to be adjusted if using guar gum. It may help to lower your need for insulin and for diabetic medications.
http://www.nutridesk.com.au/guar-gum.phtml

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lyndacarol
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:38 pm

CureOrBust wrote:Stumbled on the following while looking into something totally unrelated, and was a little surprised I hadn't heard of it before with all the media going loopy about sugar and the GI of foods.
Guar gum can slow down glucose absorption and reduce the incidence of postprandial (after eating) hypotension.
http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/health/re ... -pressure/

The actual link has nothing to do with Insulin or MS or provide any further info, I just included it for a reference, so don't waste your time to read it. 8)


---=== edit ===---
OK, I did a quick look in google to see if it is a well known fact, and clicked on one of the links.
Because the rate of absorption of glucose is decreased, this feature is helpful in diabetics. However, your insulin or diabetic medication may need to be adjusted if using guar gum. It may help to lower your need for insulin and for diabetic medications.
http://www.nutridesk.com.au/guar-gum.phtml
Thank you for this information, CureOrBust. I have not heard of this before either.

Since I began to eat strictly gluten-free about three weeks ago, I have been reading lots of GF cookbooks and GF recipes. Guar gum and/or xanthan gum are common ingredients in gluten-free recipes. I have been reluctant to choose recipes with these ingredients, since I have never used them before and didn't understand their purpose. With this new information, I won't hesitate anymore. As you know, my current thinking is that gluten/wheat generates zonulin, which opens the tight junctions of the intestinal lining, and this allows too much insulin to pass into the bloodstream (Correction, thanks to CaveMan: the digestive enzymes secreted by the pancreas enter the small intestine; the pancreatic hormones, of which insulin is one, enter the mesenteric blood vessels, specifically the portal vein. I think wheat gluten simply raises blood glucose and its insulin response.) . I don't want any surge of glucose absorption to trigger more insulin secretion – so if guar gum slows glucose absorption, it's "a good thing," as Martha Stewart says.
Last edited by lyndacarol on Wed May 07, 2014 8:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

CaveMan
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by CaveMan » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:45 am

Not quite sure if you've got it all right or maybe just the way you have written it.

Zonulin as I wrote elswhere is a human protein and part of normal endothelial function, it's just with some conditions like coeliac that there is an association with higher levels of Zonulin, this does not suggest it causes the condition.
"Corrolation does not show Causation" that is the golden rule for all studies that many seem to have forgotten, most studies only show an association or corrolation and report it as if it was causation in their conclusion, read carefully and consider what is really being said.
Here's a link on the discovery of zonulin:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 090409.php

So Wheat/Gluten does not generate Zonulin, but may be associated with a higher level of Zonulin, this may be a problem or may be an attempt to adress another unidentified problem, I have not seen enough data to confirm if the situations are always the same with non coeliac patients as well.

Insulin does not enter the bloodstream from the gut it is released by the pancreases beta cells through the endochrine system in response to the bodies metabolic signals, of which dietary glucose is one, but there are others which are not fully understood yet, hence diabetes still remains an elusive condition.

The limiting of glucose absorption by Guar gum (poly saccharide) is much the same as the result from eating vegetables and increasing dietary fibre, (not cereal brans, they are worthless and potentially dangerous), but merely eating more vegetables and fruit rather than processed carbohydrates & sugars.

Consider doing some research on resistant starches, they are very much like solouble fibre and another thing is the use of sourdough process if you are baking GF breads, the Lactobacillus that is a mainstay of the process produces a much healthier product than yeast or baking soda based breads etc.
I don't eat grains or bread, but that's me.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.

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cervocuit
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by cervocuit » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:15 am

From a microbiome point of view:

Microbiome Changed by Gluten Increases Incidences of Type 1 Diabetes
http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2013-rst/7777.html
There also was a measurable impact of the gluten on the bacterial flora of the mice that might be one way in which gluten could affect the risk for diabetes.

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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by Kronk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:52 pm

The authors of this study assume the MS has cause the glucose issues but perhaps it is the glucose/ insulin issue that has caused the MS?

http://www.neurology.org/content/48/6/1566.short

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lyndacarol
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:56 pm

Without subscribing, I am unable to see the full text of this study. My disappointment is that no one studying any aspect of MS thinks to test and establish insulin levels. In this study I hypothesize that the "global CMRGlu was significantly lower in both MS groups compared with CON [control group]" because the glucose was depressed in the MS group by excess insulin. I have found no researchers yet who believe that glucose/insulin might cause MS, but that is MY belief.

Thanks for posting this link, Kronk. Although this thread has become almost unmanageably large, I find it logical to have related information altogether in one place.

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Leonard
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by Leonard » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:19 am

Hi Lynda,

I share your view that insulin is involved.
In fact, it was through your thinking and interaction with yourself that I started the topic on A new concept for MS in Jan 2011.

But besides the insulin factor, I think MS is a broader issue of endocrine dysregulation.
Where at some point in the disease process, the HPA axis gets affected establishing a vicious circle.
http://syontix.com/the-gut-brain-axis-h ... enal-axis/

I also believe that stimulating insulin may help to feed the crying cells, a bit contrary to your believe.
I still take some metformin and glimperide, for what it is worth...

Leo

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lyndacarol
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:11 pm

With its mention of dysfunctions in insulin receptor signaling being exacerbated by a deficiency in Omega-3s, I believe the following article may belong here:

'Metabolic syndrome' in the brain: deficiency in omega-3 fatty acid exacerbates dysfunctions in insulin receptor signaling and cognition

http://drperlmutter.com/wp-content/uplo ... -brain.pdf

In the Introduction, page 2486:

"Given that insulin can penetrate the brain–blood barrier, it can have a wide range of brain actions, which may largely depend on the signalling through its receptors."

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lyndacarol
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Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:27 am

Although this information was discussed here about a year ago (April 28, 2013), I can't shake the feeling that IGF-1 is important. However, I have focused on the "growth factor" or growth hormone aspect; but now I think the key lies in the "insulin-like" part.

This idea was expressed (page 67) in the Winter 08-09 issue of the MS Society publication, Momentum,
The growth factor IGF-1 had shown some success in promoting myelin formation, so a Society-funded team led by Stephane Genoud, PhD (The Salk Institute, La Jolla, Calif.), injected it into mice with EAE. The injections actually worsened the disease. (Journal of Neuroimmunology 2005; 168:40-5) Such failures are important to pinpoint before they affect people with MS in clinical trials.
Here is the abstract of the work mentioned:


1: J Neuroimmunol. 2005 Nov;168(1-2):40-5. Epub 2005 Aug 24. Links
Targeted expression of IGF-1 in the central nervous system fails to protect mice from experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis.Genoud S, Maricic I, Kumar V, Gage FH.
Laboratory of Genetics, The Salk Institute, 10010 N Torrey Pines Rd, La Jolla, CA 92037, USA.

Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) has been identified as a critical molecule in the induction of myelination in the central nervous system (CNS). Systemic injection of IGF-1 has been shown to have a varied and transiently protective effect on the clinical course of experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE). Since systemic IGF-1 can also modulate peripheral immune lymphocytes, we examined whether a sustained and local delivery of IGF-1 into the spinal cord would have any influence on the chronic course of EAE in C57/BL6 mice. The capability of adeno-associated virus (AAV) to be retrogradely transported efficiently from muscle to motor neurons of the spinal cord was used to overcome the difficulty routinely encountered when attempting chronic delivery of molecules into the CNS. We demonstrate that AAV-mediated delivery of IGF-1 in CNS did not have any beneficial effect on the clinical course of EAE. Injection of AAV-IGF1 after induction of the disease worsened the clinical symptoms. Furthermore, CNS expression of IGF-1 did not affect the pathogenic anti-MOG T cell response, as examined by proliferation and cytokine secretion. Thus, enhanced expression of IGF-1 in the CNS during inflammation does not have a significant effect on myelination. These data have important implications for the potential use of IGF-1 in the treatment of multiple sclerosis.

PMID: 16120466 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This seems to indict insulin again: on March 5, 2014 Dr. Oz spoke with oncologist Marleen I. Meyers, M.D., who thinks that no dairy with artificial hormones should be consumed (rbGH-recombinant bovine growth hormone is given to increase a cow’s milk output, but it also increases IGF-1 in milk, which is linked to breast, prostaste, colon cancer – cancers have increased numbers of insulin receptors on the cells) [Could this be the reason that elimination of dairy often improves MS symptoms?]
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/everyda ... wont-touch

The slideshow explains this again: http://www.doctoroz.com/slideshow/foods ... llery=true
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"

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