Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.
Kronk
Family Elder
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:18 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by Kronk » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:42 pm

lyndacarol wrote:Could this be the reason that elimination of dairy often improves MS symptoms?
What study or evidence did you find to support this?
I quit almost all dairy a year ago but I am interested if there are any facts to support my choice.

User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 12028
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:59 am

I hadn't had dairy in over a decade when I was dxd.. dairy consumption does draw on a few nutritional resources, which would be less strained on a dairy free diet. however, elimination doesn't fix any other bad habits that might have made dairy handling troublesome in the first place.

I don't have a lot of time today but here's one related study:
Effect of foodstuffs on the absorption of zinc sulfate.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/1091398
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:32 am

Kronk wrote:
lyndacarol wrote:Could this be the reason that elimination of dairy often improves MS symptoms?
What study or evidence did you find to support this?
I quit almost all dairy a year ago but I am interested if there are any facts to support my choice.
I cannot cite a study that supports the elimination of dairy in the diet. I was trying to refer to the frequent choice by many here at TIMS to be dairy-free.

The largest proportion of US dairy is not affected by this hormone rbGH; it is not allowed in many European countries; and it is probably not available at all elsewhere. IF this is a component of the problem, it is only one possible contributing factor for some.

Personally, I have not been a milk-drinker since about age 10. Then, I was subjected to the "butter-is-bad-for-you" idea when margarine (with its much worse trans fats) was ubiquitous – trans fats stimulate increased insulin production! In retrospect, my diet pre-MS was high in EVERYTHING causing insulin secretion (including other dairy, like ice cream and cheese; hormones were not the issue – but also wheat, refined carbs...sugar is the issue). My pancreas was habituated to hyperinsulinemia; it is like a set point that I cannot move down to 3 and keep there.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"

Kronk
Family Elder
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:18 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by Kronk » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:47 am

Interesting... will be paying attention to see what you come up with in the realm of IGF-1 as I too believe it is important. The reason it may not be effective when injecting it is you lack the elevation of other key nutrients when ingested naturally. I consume over 200g of protein a day which would indicate a high level of IGF-1. The reason for the high intake is that I am an active bodybuilder, but protein has many other benefits. Tryptophan is critically low in all MS patients and high protein foods are the highest sources of tryptophan.

Leucine and Valine are also in high protein foods though and they are found to be excessively high in the CSF of MS patients. If Leucine and Valine are not metabolized correctly they "rot" and produce toxic keto-acids. Leucine and valine toxicity is very real and is the cause of Maple Syrup Urine Disease which is characterized by neurologic issues related to the lack of the ezymes to process leucine and valine. MSUD and MS have very interesting links and it may be that instead of lacking the enzymes from birth we lose them when an adult. This may help explain the efficacy of uric acid as it is can function as an anti-oxidant and remove the ketoacids and ammonia. What is odd is that these 3 amino acids (Tryptophan, Leucine and Valine) are found as a trio in foods... Why is it that we are low in Tryptophan but high in the other two? Seems to point to enzymes and our ability to metabolize them and maybe to the BBB and its selective permeability issues.

MS is a very unusual disease but if we focus on the commonalities in ALL MS cases we may be able to cut through to the root issue(s).

User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 12028
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:24 am

I personally think looking for one indicator common to all ms patients is a major roadblock to understanding this illness.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 12028
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:37 am

ran across this as part of a different discussion:

Maternal Zinc Deficiency in Rats Affects Growth and Glucose Metabolism in the Offspring by Inducing Insulin Resistance Postnatally
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/140/9/1621.short
"blood glucose and serum insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) concentrations at wk 3 were significantly higher in ZnD pups than in controls."
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

Kronk
Family Elder
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:18 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by Kronk » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:08 pm

jimmylegs wrote:I personally think looking for one indicator common to all ms patients is a major roadblock to understanding this illness.
In a disease with great differences in symptoms, disability rates and quality of life how could it not be beneficial in looking at what is the same across the board?
If you want to isolate the root cause you have to determine what is the same in each patient. Even if it is varying levels of zinc or other diet related items finding a consistent theme in all patients is essential. But zinc isn't just low in MS patients much like diet isn't just poor in MS patients. There is more to it.

User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 12028
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:08 pm

nutritional imbalances and deficits are consistent in ms patients - this is demonstrated in research. the origins of the imbalance will vary from person to person however, with individual genetic, epigenetic, prenatal, early life, and adult environmental and lifestyle influences and choices. which is why a diet that works for one patient may not work for another. I don't believe that a root cause and a one size fits all solution is feasible given the complexity of factors that play into chronic diseases like ms.

at a minimum, working to address nutritional imbalances or deficits can clear any related symptoms out of the picture, so docs know what they're actually dealing with, having confidence that nutrition issues aren't in the mix.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

standingtall
Family Member
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:44 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by standingtall » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:26 am

Have read this thread many times, and reviewing again today..........But I am just too fatigued to keep reading, so maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I am 5 yr. MS'er who has had a fairly easy road so far, until just recently. Worst attack ever two weeks ago and not back from the woodshed yet.
What I am searching for is the possibility of insulin or blood sugar causing my recent onset of numbness/poor circulation in my feet. In particular, I have checked the levels in the past and never found them to be a high. I kind of gave up on that being an issue for me. But the similar symptoms of diabetes and what I am experiencing now are remarkable. Without giving my life history, I was a poor caretaker of my body prior to MS. But since dx's have a healthy regiment of diet, excersice and minimize stress. I am gluten and dairy free also. Take lots of good supplements, but nothing exotic or out of the realm of vitamins and minerals.

want2bike
Family Elder
Posts: 742
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:15 am

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by want2bike » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:19 am

Have you given Dr. Bergman's treatment a chance. He claims you can get your health back in 60 days if you follow his treatment. Get a juicer and follow his advice. You might get your health back.


standingtall
Family Member
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:44 pm

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by standingtall » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:36 pm

Although I do have value for many of Bergman's idea's, I don't think going vegan will cure everyone's MS. Sorry to oversimplify, and your suggestion is not without value, but it does not apply in this instance.

User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:42 pm

standingtall wrote: maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I am 5 yr. MS'er who has had a fairly easy road so far, until just recently. Worst attack ever two weeks ago and not back from the woodshed yet.
What I am searching for is the possibility of insulin or blood sugar causing my recent onset of numbness/poor circulation in my feet. In particular, I have checked the levels in the past and never found them to be a high. I kind of gave up on that being an issue for me. But the similar symptoms of diabetes and what I am experiencing now are remarkable. Without giving my life history, I was a poor caretaker of my body prior to MS. But since dx's have a healthy regiment of diet, excersice and minimize stress. I am gluten and dairy free also. Take lots of good supplements, but nothing exotic or out of the realm of vitamins and minerals.
Standingtall, in checking the insulin level in the past, what has been the exact number? The ideal number will be 3 UU/ML or lower; an acceptable result would be up to 5 UU/ML. My first test result was 12, which is elevated; but, unfortunately, my lab lists the standard range as 3-28.

Excess insulin thickens and stiffens smooth muscles – the muscles in the walls of blood vessels are smooth muscles. I think this accounts for your numbness/poor circulation in your feet.

Your diet sounds good (Are you 100% gluten-free?); some people are extremely sensitive to the smallest amount of gluten. I hope your diet is extremely low in carbs. Don't forget to add lots of good fats – olive oil, avocado, and nuts. Exercise and minimal stress are also part of a good regimen.

If you are talking about type II diabetes, remember that excess insulin production is occurring in a person with type II diabetes.

chenman
Family Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:29 am

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by chenman » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:18 pm

lyndacarol wrote:(... ...)
If you are talking about type II diabetes, remember that excess insulin production is occurring in a person with type II diabetes.
Hello Lyndacarol,
high insulin in T2DM is characteristic of the early state: The body (pancreas) reacts to insulin resistance = IR, trying to overcome it with increased insulin production. (I did not read all those posts over a ?decade...)

What is important:
IR is caused by stored surplus iron in the body. The most important paper is one of Francisco S. Facchini and Kami L. Saylor in Ann NY Acad Sci 2002:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12079862
They had 31 participants in the study with average serum ferritin of about 300 ng/ml and IR. After a series of phlebotomies (like blood donations) average ferritin was down to ca. 14 ng/ml (less than 1/20 of the initial mean, without anemia) and the signs of the IR-syndrome (often called metabolic syndrome) were gone.

I am not sure if they determined insulin, but it certainly decreased with disappearance of IR.
Are your aware of your iron metabolism, i.e. your serum ferritin?

User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by lyndacarol » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:47 pm

chenman wrote:
lyndacarol wrote:(... ...)
If you are talking about type II diabetes, remember that excess insulin production is occurring in a person with type II diabetes.
Hello Lyndacarol,
high insulin in T2DM is characteristic of the early state: The body (pancreas) reacts to insulin resistance = IR, trying to overcome it with increased insulin production. (I did not read all those posts over a ?decade...)

What is important:
IR is caused by stored surplus iron in the body. The most important paper is one of Francisco S. Facchini and Kami L. Saylor in Ann NY Acad Sci 2002:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12079862
They had 31 participants in the study with average serum ferritin of about 300 ng/ml and IR. After a series of phlebotomies (like blood donations) average ferritin was down to ca. 14 ng/ml (less than 1/20 of the initial mean, without anemia) and the signs of the IR-syndrome (often called metabolic syndrome) were gone.

I am not sure if they determined insulin, but it certainly decreased with disappearance of IR.
Are your aware of your iron metabolism, i.e. your serum ferritin?
Hi chenman,
I do understand the progression of hyperinsulinemia to insulin resistance to type II diabetes; I had not heard of the connection to stored surplus iron in the body. Thank you for the link to the abstract of Facchini and Saylor's 2002 paper.

I am not aware of my serum ferritin.

When I joined ThisIsMS 10 years ago, my focus was on my elevated insulin levels as possibly being involved with my MS symptoms. Life is an evolution; I now think that a B12 deficiency (and a methylation problem) may result in inflammation and dysfunction of my pancreas. I know that hepatomegaly (enlargement of the liver) and splenomegaly (enlargement of the spleen) are signs/symptoms of B12 deficiency – why not the pancreas as well?

Then recently, I learned about the strong chelator, glyphosate, in the herbicide Roundup. Glyphosate not only ties up many minerals (including iron and cobalt, which is the basis of vitamin B12), but negatively affects glands and organs (like the thyroid, pancreas, etc.) almost immediately. 80-90% of the American food supply today has been affected by glyphosate, which was patented as a herbicide in 1974.

Since there is no known cause for MS, I am open to any hypothesis and appreciate any information in any direction. And I appreciate your encouragement (in another thread) to all of us.

chenman
Family Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:29 am

Re: Insulin--Could This Be the Key?

Post by chenman » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:38 am

Hello Lyndacarol,
please try to get your ferritin value. (Is there type2-diabetes in your family? Liver diseases...)
The most common genetic disorder is iron storage disease, hereditary hemochromatosis, somewhere in the promille range. The "carriers" are in the 10% range and have the tendency to store more iron than the "wild type", that is the other ca. 90% = the majority.

I suspect that iron storage is a factor in MS progression, or neurodegeneration (which is said to set in in CIS already, and in women frequently starts to become obvious in postmenapause): MS lesions might result from small bleedings from inflammed venules / small veins. Hemoglobin is degraded and iron may remain in the extracellular space in MS lesions if not efficiently removed by transferrin (or some other mechanism? The CNS is special in many respects - and of course difficult to study...).
------------------------------------------------

I disaggree with your statement that the cause of MS is not known.
Indisputably there is a genetic predisposition for MS (certainly very heterogenous: over 100 mutations "identified"...). But this predisposition is without any (obvious) effect unless an external factor is added. (In principle there might be several, even different diseases ending in the "McDonald diagnosis", but for simplicity we may assume a single disease, a "nosological unit" MS.)

To find the cause epidemiology is the handle to come to grips with the problem. I.e.
1. Twiin studies, especially identical = monozygous twins, MZ. If one of them has MS in Sweden (best twin register worldwide) the other has a risk below 20%, and the common home environment (food etc. - including glyphosate...) is without effect, as far as the "all or none" MS risk is concerned.
MS is based until about age 15 (+/-...; textbook knowledge), and twins (normally) live together in their family up to this age...

Please think about what remains as a possible cause of MS (all or none: one of the MZ twins has MS, the other does not have it, MRT, CFS, reflexex etc. etc. all ok).

2. Geographic epidemiology: most prevalent in temperate climate - but the cause certainly is NOT low sun exposure or Vitamin D in food... (see above).
What is little known: MS risk is much lower in Alaska than for example in Vancouver or Portland. It is much lower in North Norway than in the South. What could make the difference?
To cut it short: far in the North with long snow cover there are few or no mice, which are the main hosts for ticks (hard ticks).
Prof. Gabriel Steiner in 1922 found that the MS risk was much higher in those persons with a high "tick exposure", even remembering tick bites. (I "counted" more than 60, when I started to recall my personal history...)

3. Ticks can transmit dozens of different infections, many of them chronic: Which one might be the cause of MS?
You get the message / see the road to find the cause? MS is by definition focal, and the change over time and location tells us that the cause is active over decades and has to be found within the active MS lesions.

That's what Prof. Steiner did: look for bacteria in active MS lesions. And he was successful in the late 1920s, published a 200 page review on his findings in 1931 and a book in 1962 summing up his findings over almost half a century: MS is the result of a chronic infection with borreliae, quite similar to the syphilis spirochete (which can produce a clinical picture not distinguishable from MS) - but with a completely different mode of transmission, MS being a "zoonosis", a vector-borne infection, transmitted by blood-sucking insects, mainly ticks but possibly horse flies... (and in rare cases transmission from mother to fetus / child).

This theory is in itself consistent (especially in its analogy to late neuro-syphilis, where the causative agent has been found / documented in the disease brain a century ago): Such a theory in science represents the current "truth": best explanation, and at present no other good explanation. ((Take CCSVI: we would have to ask why the MZ twin with MS has it - has this been investigated? - and the healthy twin does NOT have it - has this been investigated? The problem with the cause is not solved by blaming it on CCSVI, but now we would have to find out what causes CCSVI... - in one MZ twin and NOT in the other...))

I am firmly convinced that the cause of MS has been "known" for more than 8 decades, but is simply ignored to this day: an active chronic focal infection of the CNS with borreliae, typically transmitted by ticks, hard ticks - predominantly in those regions where these ticks are abundant.

This is supported (?backed up) by lots of evidence, i.e. from what is known to have some control over MS, i.e.:
--- IVIG (which are antibodies from a large pool of blood donors certainly containing anti-borrelial antibodies).
--- "Immunosuppressants" / cytotoxic drugs which not only kill / suppress cells of the host = patient with typical "side" effects, but are cytotoxic against bacteria, too, which are also cells with DNA etc.

--- Most important: A few antimicrobials with the required characteristics (able to cross the BBB, active against spirochetes) are highly effective in active (early...) MS: mino- and doxycycline...
This is what Prof. G.Steiner was aiming at: find the cause, then find means to fight this cause. (Of course an immunisation against B.burgdorferi would be perferred: science is working on that matter, one vaccine is in clinical trial, which takes years... -- but for the time being we have doxycycline as the standard therapy for tick borreliosis, no serious discussion about that.
---------------------------------------------

The cause of MS IS "KNOWN", but it has been ignored for many decades, along with the drug of choice to combat this cause of the disease (both MS and late neuroborreliosis - and btw doxycycline is the second-line drug for syphilis if the patient is allergic against the first-line drug penicillin.).

I suppose this sounds unbelievable to you: Why would the cause bei ignored for decades?
Well, that is a long story: should I tell it? I'll try in a few paragraphs:
Gabriel Steiner was born in Ulm / Germany, like Albert Einstein, 4 years apart. Both were Jews.
Einstein won the Noble Prize in 1921, emigrated to the US, was world famous...
G.Steiner was expelled from his post as a professor at the University of Heidelberg by the Nazis right away in the spring of 1933, emigrated to the US in 1936 - but was not famous.

To make it short: After the war German neurologists mainly had made their career during the 12 years of the "3.Reich", were not fond of "jewish science", but their own "junk" -- so the work of Gabriel Steiner (very far away in Detroit) was ignored, forgotten...

His reviews and the 1962 book are written in German. After the war English became the universal language of science - and nobody bothered to translate the major works of G.Steiner.
Can you read German?
http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2 ... 42-87571-7
Read this book, try to find flaws in it (which is practically impossible: it has been confirmed by so many other groups...): This is the present "TRUTH" regarding the central cause of MS. If nobody can / does disprove this "truth" it will remain true.

It may seem unbelievable, but you have to turn the switch in your thinking form "the MS cause is NOT known" to the cause of MS IS known. Hard to do?
chenman

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post