some ramblings

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jerrygallow
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some ramblings

Post by jerrygallow » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:16 pm

I went back to my university this summer and thought I would do some reading on MS. My school has one of the ten largest libraries in the US with about 12 million volumes and is connected to a high ranking medical school. We had about 750 books on MS. But, I couldn't believe this, only about six or so were in the actual library...the rest, even recently published ones, were in an off-site storage facility. Which means nobody reads them or wants to read them. We have a whole floor in the stacks of books written in Chinese. But those apparently get more action than the books on MS.

I did round up one history book and gave it quick skim. What struck me though was just how many false starts this disease has seen over the years. I can now understand the skepticism and reticence of the profession toward any new idea. If you propose a solution to MS, you are basically killing your career and credibility.

And the problem is that to revisit old discredited ideas is about the same as quackery. I had to wonder to myself if the right idea was examined then abandoned for lack of confirmation or because they lacked the science at the time. Now we are in an "immune theory", which has very real limits and detractors, but it takes enormous guts to propose something else. And the focus of research now seems to be just figuring out a way to manage symptoms. It's unfortunate that looking for a cause takes the backseat.

But finally, I found it very interesting that the spirochete theory had some very real evidence and strong support for a number of years. Starting in the teens, researchers noted that pwMS had bacteria in their brains and spinal fluid. These findings were confirmed numbers of times around the world in about 50 published studies. But, the idea fell prey to criticism and controvery...not too different from the CCSVI drama. But what of the evidence?

And then the cluster ideas. One account in Canada had 14 cases of people who lived on the same street. That's not genetic. I'm sorry. But the cluster gets discredited. Instead of looking for a cause, it seems they look for reasons not be suspicious. It's kind of like trying to solve a crime by explaining why a suspect probably didn't do it. It makes no sense to me. The author noted that every practicing neurologist can tell you similar cluster stories, yet they remain "unproven". I know that my next door neighbor growing up now has MS, and we were diagnosed the same year with the same symptom.

DrGeoff
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Re: some ramblings

Post by DrGeoff » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:20 am

Well, I for one do not think that is "rambling" - I think it is very pertinent. take the "cluster" ideas ...

I put a lot of weight in the "3 component" approach The 3 components being Genetic, Environmental and Situational. That fits jerrygallow's Canadian example fairly well. A lot of people in one town (or county, or province) tend to come from the same genetic background (Scots, Irish or French in Canada for example). They are in the same town, and have a high probability of the same environment. There is two out of three for a start.

The trouble with most of the theories that are not mainstream is that the new ideas get picked up, NOT by the current mainstream medicos, BUT by the dubious end of the medical profession (I can offer you the NEW wonder treatment that the insurance companies wont pay for for only $$$$$). The history of CCSVI makes interesting reading, since it seems to be split between the serious scientific research on one side, and the get rich quicker guys on the other side, Recently, here, we have even had the suggestion that MS and CCSVI were both symptoms of something else. Now I don't know whether CCSVI is a cause, or a symptom, of MS, but I do believe that there is a connection.

Let's have some more rambling.

Geoff

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Re: some ramblings

Post by want2bike » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:23 am

The cause is environmental and people who do not have the good genetics which allow them to get rid of the toxins easily will get a disease. It is the same with all disease. The solution was given to us by nature or God. Nutrition is the means which allows our immune system to heal us. Nutrition is not the only thing that our body needs. Other things are important to make our body healthy such as exercise, sleep and mental attitude but knowledge is the path to getting our health back. Each of us must look at our environment an get rid of anything we see as a toxin. We need to follow as healthy a lifestyle as possible. After you get a disease the sooner you adopt this attitude the better your chance of healing. The longer you let disease go on the harder it will be to heal. Fact is you can damage the body beyond repair. Once you destroy your immune system there is no hope.

There is no one cause. That is how they confuse the issue. No one that I know of is looking for the cause. They are looking for drugs to weaken your immune system to cover up symptoms. Does anyone really think that the drug company want to find the cause and put themselves out of business? Each of us is responsible for our own health and must find the solution. The sooner we start the better chance we have of getting our health back. Some will be happy to go alone with the system and that is their choice but for people who want their health back the solution is there. Once people identify the toxins and get them out of their bodies the get better. Drugs are toxic. Dr. Mercola has a good video explaining how drugs are killing people. You do not have to buy anything. Just get the information and decide for yourself if drugs make sense.


http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... =628639746

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HarryZ
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Re: some ramblings

Post by HarryZ » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:43 am

I've been following MS research for some 45 years now, first with an uncle who had the disease when I was in my teens and then my wife who had it for about 35 years before passing away in 2007 from other complications caused from having MS for so long.

I know exactly what you mean when mention the reception that other theories get when put forth by others outside of the mainstream world of medicine. If the new theory suggests another cause outside of the immune system theory, the people (docs and big pharma) who subscribe to this theory will circle the wagons and protect their reputations and cash cow.

Dr. Zamboni's CCSVI is but one example. Another was what happened when Elaine Delack, producer of the alternative medicine Prokarin introduced her work back in 2000. Labeled a quack and quick money artist by some in the MS world, she ran into a mountain of opposition from people who had no clue of about the work she was doing at the time. Uncovered documentation about thousands of patients who used histamine treatment (basis of Prokarin) at a MS clinic in Washington State in the early 50's showed about 80% of them got relief from their MS symptoms. Some of the attacks were quite vicious with the NMSS in New York City leading the way!

I attended many of the CRAB drug seminars delivered by MS neurologists who were paid nicely by the particular drug company. Try to question the fancy charts they were using or even mention treatments outside the established MS world and you soon felt their wrath. I can remember asking the drug rep after a presentation why these neuros wouldn't even consider trying some of these other treatments and she discreetly whispered into my ear.." you have to grease their palms with $$$ to get their attention"!!

So it's no wonder you have experienced the lack of interest in MS information outside of the norm. For years each group went their separate ways, often competing for the "market share of revenue". Not until the last 10 years has anyone put forth new and very different ideas about MS and you see the reception that they get. No wonder there is still no known cause of MS and certainly nothing that remotely comes close to a cure. Perhaps some day!

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HarryZ
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Re: some ramblings

Post by HarryZ » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:58 am

want2bike wrote:The cause is environmental and people who do not have the good genetics which allow them to get rid of the toxins easily will get a disease.
There is no one cause. That is how they confuse the issue.

Well, that certainly clears up the confusion!!
No one that I know of is looking for the cause.
Well I guess with all your connections and knowledge within MS research around the world that must be the case!

JeanDeEau
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Re: some ramblings

Post by JeanDeEau » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:00 am

Like HarryZ wrote:
Wanna posted:
The cause is environmental ...
and
There is no one cause.

Ever thought of taking a course in logic Wanna?

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Re: some ramblings

Post by Kronk » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:16 am

DrGeoff wrote:I put a lot of weight in the "3 component" approach The 3 components being Genetic, Environmental and Situational. That fits jerrygallow's Canadian example fairly well.
I very much agree with this. Not one or two of the factors but all are required to trigger MS. They have actually investigated the clusterings extensively, I had a discussion with my Neuro about it and he was very well read on the subject but said that no study of a cluster has provided a potential cause. There is no single similarity between in any of the clusters either. He gave a few examples of them, some are listed on the link below.

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/What-i ... S/Clusters
Want2Bike wrote:There is no one cause. That is how they confuse the issue.
Ahhh yes the THEY, the evil boogeyman conspirators who want to rule the world by giving less than 0.00002% of the worlds population MS. Especially us dangerous Canadians.

Youarethecure
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Re: some ramblings

Post by Youarethecure » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:11 pm

hahhaha, I hope im not the only immature kid that laughs at you guys and wannabike..... lol

I have NEVER heard of this cluster thing, seems very interesting. I am going to research it.

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Re: some ramblings

Post by Kronk » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:23 pm

Youarethecure wrote:hahhaha, I hope im not the only immature kid that laughs at you guys and wannabike..... lol
We are the immature kids for engaging with the old timer and his "unusual" beliefs. But its hard not to have some fun, as long as you don't take his rants serious.

The clusterings are very interesting. But at the same time frustrating that they haven't been able to find a link. Are they just coincidence or is there a hidden cause?

Youarethecure
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Re: some ramblings

Post by Youarethecure » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:39 am

Yes it is very interesting.

Has there ever been a study on how maybe different people have different triggers perhaps?

It would only make sense when based off how different our disease path can be from one another that differnt things can "trigger" it.

Youarethecure
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Re: some ramblings

Post by Youarethecure » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:42 am

I mean whos to say that there is 1 common factor when EVERYTHING about this disease varies from person to person..........

DrGeoff
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Re: some ramblings

Post by DrGeoff » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:40 am

Youarethecure wrote:Yes it is very interesting.
Has there ever been a study on how maybe different people have different triggers perhaps?
It would only make sense when based off how different our disease path can be from one another that differnt things can "trigger" it.
Of course there has been no such study - current medical science "knows" it is an auto-immune problem.

The "cluster" and "3-component" notions were big in clinical psychology about 30-40 years back - and that was about the same time that psychologists were sneering at MDs for treating everything with a handful of pills (The Medical Model) and MD were sneering at psychologists for not treating everything with a handful of pills. Of course, even then, the psychologists knew that different people needed different interventions - and that one size does not fit all.

Another "of course" is that it is a lot easier to trial a new psychological treatment, write it up, and get it accepted as viable, than it is to get a new medication through trials. One successful treatment on maybe 30-40 people will get published, but a new medication will need several thousand through three phases of trials, and a statistically significant result, and will then need to be cost-effective as well.

Geoff

want2bike
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Re: some ramblings

Post by want2bike » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:12 am

Ever hear of the cluster of MS study done in El Paso. They want to link it to ASARCO smelter plant. Seems emissions of iron, lead, arsenic, zinc and cadmium may be toxic and may result in MS. Best to keep the bodies environment free of toxins.

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/epitox/elpasostudy.shtm

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Re: some ramblings

Post by DrGeoff » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:47 am

want2bike wrote: ... Seems emissions of iron, lead, arsenic, zinc and cadmium may be toxic and may result in MS. Best to keep the bodies environment free of toxins. ...
Now that is a definite maybe from wanna.

So, let's get the facts straight. Lead, Arsenic, Zinc, and Cadmium are all toxic in the right form and strength.
Not "seems", but are.

In another life (back when DrGeoff was just MrGeoff) I had to inspect a conveyor in a lead smelter. That was just a 20 minute job with an oxygen mask on.
Of course, people living just a few hundred yards away did not have to wear masks, and I have no idea what the incidence of MS in that area is, so don't ask.

Geoff

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HarryZ
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Re: some ramblings

Post by HarryZ » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:01 am

want2bike wrote:Ever hear of the cluster of MS study done in El Paso. They want to link it to ASARCO smelter plant. Seems emissions of iron, lead, arsenic, zinc and cadmium may be toxic and may result in MS. Best to keep the bodies environment free of toxins.

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/epitox/elpasostudy.shtm
"This study was not designed to investigate the specific cause or causes of MS and the results cannot tell us why there is an excess of MS among the former Mesita students."

While none of those toxins are good for your health, you only have to read above what was part of their conclusions. How do you determine what can possibly contribute to the cause of MS when you don't even know what causes the disease.

The Province of Saskatchewan in Canada has one of the highest incidence of MS in the world yet there are no industries like the above within that province. Saskatchewan is mostly agricultural with some mining and oil exploration. They have done many studies there but still can't put their finger on why such a high level of the disease exists. It seems the more studies they do, the more questions they end up with!

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