Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

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NHE
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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by NHE » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:24 am

R-liopic acid vs. Na-R-lipoate, is the Na-R-lipoate worth the extra cost?

From: The Plasma Pharmacokinetics of R-(+)-Lipoic Acid Administered as Sodium R-(+)-Lipoate to Healthy Human Subjects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18069903
Different forms of RLA produce dramatically different PK values. Recently, RLA was compared to NaRLA in humans using a simple crossover design.43 This study compared Cmax and AUC values of a pre-dissolved aqueous solution containing 600 mg RLA (as NaRLA) to those of 600 mg RLA in the same subjects. In a single male (subject 1), NaRLA produced Cmax of 14.1 mcg/mL; whereas, RLA resulted in a Cmax of 0.7 mcg/mL (increase of 25.86x). The AUC in the same subject was 5.18 mcg hr/mL for NaRLA versus 1.56 mcg hr/mL for RLA (increase of 3.3x). In a single female (subject 4), Cmax was 18.1 mcg/mL for NaRLA versus 1.01 mcg/mL for RLA (increase of 17.9x) and the AUC was 5.71 mcg hr/mL for NaRLA compared to 2.14 mcg hr/mL for RLA (increase of 2.67x).

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by tzootsi » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:49 am

A lot of people are now taking biotin, which seems to have possibly the same benefits as lipoic acid. The question in my mind - would taking both of them together be beneficial, or might they negate each other?

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by David1949 » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:46 pm

NHE wrote:R-liopic acid vs. Na-R-lipoate, is the Na-R-lipoate worth the extra cost?

From: The Plasma Pharmacokinetics of R-(+)-Lipoic Acid Administered as Sodium R-(+)-Lipoate to Healthy Human Subjects.
http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/12/4/343.pdf
Different forms of RLA produce dramatically different PK values. Recently, RLA was compared to NaRLA in humans using a simple crossover design.43 This study compared Cmax and AUC values of a pre-dissolved aqueous solution containing 600 mg RLA (as NaRLA) to those of 600 mg RLA in the same subjects. In a single male (subject 1), NaRLA produced Cmax of 14.1 mcg/mL; whereas, RLA resulted in a Cmax of 0.7 mcg/mL (increase of 25.86x). The AUC in the same subject was 5.18 mcg hr/mL for NaRLA versus 1.56 mcg hr/mL for RLA (increase of 3.3x). In a single female (subject 4), Cmax was 18.1 mcg/mL for NaRLA versus 1.01 mcg/mL for RLA (increase of 17.9x) and the AUC was 5.71 mcg hr/mL for NaRLA compared to 2.14 mcg hr/mL for RLA (increase of 2.67x).
That might be good info if any of us knew what "PK values", "Cmax", and "AUC values" mean. :?

But the real question should be; what was used in the study?

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by NHE » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:24 pm

David1949 wrote:That might be good info if any of us knew what "PK values", "Cmax", and "AUC values" mean. :?
PK: Pharmacokinetics
Cmax: Plasma maximum concentration
AUC: Area under the plasma concentration versus time curve

Cmax and AUC are examples of PK values.

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by Shayk » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:46 am

In this study (full text open access) the researchers performed prior to the clinical trial: Pharmokinetic study of lipoic acid in multiple sclerosis they used the "r" form of lipoic acid.
Lipoic acid in human studies

Viatris® (now called Meda Pharma®) provided a tablet formulation containing 600 mg racemic LA (lot # 4E002-1, expiration date 05/07), referred to as Formulation A. Vital Nutrients® (Middletown, CT, USA) provided gelatin capsules containing 300 mg racemic LA (lot # 5G24 expiration 08/07). Each capsule also contained cellulose powder and small amounts of ascorbyl palmitate and silica. This product is referred to as Formulation B. Pure Encapsulations® (Sudbury, MA, USA) provided vegetable capsules containing 600 mg racemic LA (Lot # 3480504 expiration 11/06) referred to as Formulation C. Each 600 mg LA capsule contained 30 mg of ascorbyl palmitate and pine cellulose plant fiber to add to volume.

LA Dosing and PK Sample Collection in MS subjects

The PK studies were performed in MS subjects using a single oral 1200 mg dose of LA, using the randomly assigned formulations, Formulation A, Formulation B or Formulation C. On the day of PK study, patients had to fast from food and beverages (except for water) overnight for at least 10 hours. Patients received a standardized breakfast in the clinic. Immediately following completion of the meal, each patient received LA 1200 mg orally with 240 mls of water.
Tzootsi
A lot of people are now taking biotin, which seems to have possibly the same benefits as lipoic acid. The question in my mind - would taking both of them together be beneficial, or might they negate each other?
I have the same question.
I've done alpha lipoic acid for years but have ??? about starting biotin.

Take care all

Sharon

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by CureOrBust » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:42 pm

Shayk wrote:... they used the "r" form of lipoic acid....
Viatris® (now called Meda Pharma®) provided a tablet formulation containing 600 mg racemic LA (lot # 4E002-1, expiration date 05/07)
Racemic means its actually contains both the R and S forms in equal proportions, not purely R.
Shayk wrote: Tzootsi
A lot of people are now taking biotin, which seems to have possibly the same benefits as lipoic acid. The question in my mind - would taking both of them together be beneficial, or might they negate each other?
I have the same question.
I've done alpha lipoic acid for years but have ??? about starting biotin.
Although its still early stages (of anyones understanding), the explanation I have come to understand is that they both work on completely different mechanisms.
More specifically, the investigators hypothesize that high doses of biotin trigger the formation of myelin in oligodendrocytes through its role as a cofactor for ACC (acetyl-CoA carboxylase). There’s a high level of ACC activity in oligodendrocytes in the brain.
http://www.emaxhealth.com/1275/why-biot ... sis-update

Whereas I think R-ALA is an antioxidant and works by repairing damage caused by free-radicals. On the page below, it talks about a combined effect between ALA and Acetyl-L-carnitine (about half way down the page)

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by Shayk » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:09 pm

CureorBust wrote:
Racemic means its actually contains both the R and L forms in equal proportions, not purely R.
Thanks for correcting me, I automatically assumed "racemic" would translate to the R form....Ooops big time.

CureorBust Wrote:
Whereas I think R-ALA is an antioxidant and works by repairing damage caused by free-radicals. On the page below, it talks about a combined effect between ALA and Acetyl-L-carnitine (about half way down the page)
I'm missing the "page below"????

Thanks again

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by CureOrBust » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:48 pm

Shayk wrote:I'm missing the "page below"????
oops... my boo-boo. I forgot to include the link
https://experiencelife.com/article/the- ... ochondria/
He experimented in the lab, trying out various supplements on a group of aging rats. Acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC), which is known for transporting fatty acids into the mitochondria, shored up the membranes and helped repair the DNA, but it didn’t decrease free-radical production. So, he added alpha-lipoic acid (LA), a mitochondrial coenzyme capable of cleaning up the messes free radicals make.

The result? Ames’s older lab rats — who couldn’t run well on a treadmill and couldn’t navigate in a water pool — were rejuvenated. Their running and swimming improved. Their mitochondria became more youthful, too.

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by MStranslate » Sun May 01, 2016 3:09 pm

Hi all,

As you have suggested, we did not discuss the type of lipoic acid used during the interview. Unfortunately, that question was posted after we had conducted the interview and so I didn't have a chance to discuss it. The link to the journal article is for a previous study and not the clinical trial that Dr Spain was talking about. I have contacted her with this question and I'm hoping that she will reply soon - she will have just returned from the conference and so be catching up on all of her work. I will reply as soon as I hear back.

Thanks,
Brett Drummond

MS Researcher/Science Communicator/Co-Founder of MStranslate
www.mstranslate.com.au
Facebook: www.facebook.com/MStranslate

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by David1949 » Mon May 02, 2016 1:51 pm

How about if each of us just continues using whatever type of Lipoic Acid we are currently trying and in a couple of months we an report on our results. Maybe one type will work better than he others. Then we can all switch to that. On the other hand maybe there won't be any difference and maybe none of them will do any good.

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by PointsNorth » Tue May 03, 2016 7:55 am

As of May 1 I am taking 1200 mg of this:

Alpha Lipoic Acid | Superior Labs Supplements
http://superiorlabssupplements.com/prod ... poic-acid/

I started taking 600 mg in the morning and then 600 mg before bed. I had trouble sleeping so I now take it all in the morning.

I am hoping this will relieve numbness in my hands.
Albany 2010. Brooklyn 2011
Hayes inspired Calcitriol+D3 2013-2014
Coimbra Protocol 2014-16
DrG B12 Transdermal Spray 2014-16
Progesterone 2015-16
Low-Dose Immunotherapy 2015-16
My Current Regimen http://www.thisisms.com/forum/regimens-f22/topic25634.html

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by David1949 » Wed May 04, 2016 7:53 am

I started taking one 600 mg tablet of Alpha Lipoic Acid once a day on 4/20/16.
On 4/23/16 I increased the dose to two times a day, for a total of 1200 mg daily.
Initially I had some trouble with stomach discomfort, but if I took the tablet with food it stopped the discomfort. Now at 5/4/16 I don't get any stomach aches at all, even without food.

I notice that urine smells strange when using ALA. Its a similar smell to that which comes after eating asparagus.

As far as my MS symptoms go, I notice no difference yet.

This is the stuff I am using; http://www.amazon.com/Natrol-Alpha-Lipo ... cid+600+mg

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by Vivianne766 » Wed May 04, 2016 3:01 pm

I wonder why 1200mg ?
The study took almost 2 years. At what point did anyone felt any improvements in walking?
Anyway... I am talking ALA 300mg once a day and I will increase it to 600mg.
Let the experiments begin.
:)

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by CureOrBust » Thu May 05, 2016 5:44 am

I just received my NA-R-ALA today. Tomorrows job is to put it into capsules. I tried R-ALA a couple of weeks back (at 1200) and did not note any effects, including no side effects.

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Re: Lipoic acid may provide ‘inexpensive’ MS treatment

Post by Vivianne766 » Thu May 05, 2016 6:49 am

That's the question. Are you supposed to note anything in only 2 weeks?!!!
My guess is NO.

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