New to forum but old to MS

New members should feel free to introduce themselves here
Post Reply
ratchasisaku
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:03 pm

New to forum but old to MS

Post by ratchasisaku »

Hi All,

I was diagnosed with MS in 2010 when I was 19 and its been 5 years since I have been facing numerous attacks of RRMS. I currently started with Avonex-Beta-interferon 1a injection and have been facing all the side effects like (flu like symptoms, shivering to the extreme, head ache, muscle ache till the next day, breathing problems) and all this stops only after the next day with almost 3 dosage of Dolo-650 and crocin. I have taken almost 12 injections which I started in this September. Now Suddenly I feel different feeling sensation in my right thigh when compared to left also when I see through my left eye sometimes i feel like seeing double vision. I dont know what should I do further for this problem now. And this saturday I need to take the injection but I have slight fever and cold now...can someone tell me if I can take injection now when I have cold and fever.

Thanks all,
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6227
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by NHE »

ratchasisaku wrote:I was diagnosed with MS in 2010 when I was 19 and its been 5 years since I have been facing numerous attacks of RRMS. I currently started with Avonex-Beta-interferon 1a injection and have been facing all the side effects like (flu like symptoms, shivering to the extreme, head ache, muscle ache till the next day, breathing problems) and all this stops only after the next day with almost 3 dosage of Dolo-650 and crocin. I have taken almost 12 injections which I started in this September. Now Suddenly I feel different feeling sensation in my right thigh when compared to left also when I see through my left eye sometimes i feel like seeing double vision. I dont know what should I do further for this problem now. And this saturday I need to take the injection but I have slight fever and cold now...can someone tell me if I can take injection now when I have cold and fever.
Greetings,
I was on Avonex for 10 years. I see that Dolo-650 is acetaminophen. I always did much better combating the side effects with ibuprofen. Try 400 mg at the time of your shot and another 400 about 5-6 hours later. I also did better taking the shot around noon as my body responded quite badly if I tried to sleep through the side effects. I had a shot once when I felt a cold coming on. The Avonex stopped it dead in its tracks. However, if you're already feeling really miserable, then the thought of adding the Avonex side effects on top of that might make it worthwhile to wait.
ratchasisaku
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:03 pm

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by ratchasisaku »

NHE wrote:
ratchasisaku wrote:I was diagnosed with MS in 2010 when I was 19 and its been 5 years since I have been facing numerous attacks of RRMS. I currently started with Avonex-Beta-interferon 1a injection and have been facing all the side effects like (flu like symptoms, shivering to the extreme, head ache, muscle ache till the next day, breathing problems) and all this stops only after the next day with almost 3 dosage of Dolo-650 and crocin. I have taken almost 12 injections which I started in this September. Now Suddenly I feel different feeling sensation in my right thigh when compared to left also when I see through my left eye sometimes i feel like seeing double vision. I dont know what should I do further for this problem now. And this saturday I need to take the injection but I have slight fever and cold now...can someone tell me if I can take injection now when I have cold and fever.
Greetings,
I was on Avonex for 10 years. I see that Dolo-650 is acetaminophen. I always did much better combating the side effects with ibuprofen. Try 400 mg at the time of your shot and another 400 about 5-6 hours later. I also did better taking the shot around noon as my body responded quite badly if I tried to sleep through the side effects. I had a shot once when I felt a cold coming on. The Avonex stopped it dead in its tracks. However, if you're already feeling really miserable, then the thought of adding the Avonex side effects on top of that might make it worthwhile to wait.
Thanks for replying immediately.... Actually its not very much miserable..I just feel tired, slight head ache and cold is coming up slightly... So is that okay that I can take the injection...?
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6227
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by NHE »

ratchasisaku wrote:Thanks for replying immediately.... Actually its not very much miserable..I just feel tired, slight head ache and cold is coming up slightly... So is that okay that I can take the injection...?
I only have my own experience to go by, but you could try it and see how you do.
ratchasisaku
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:03 pm

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by ratchasisaku »

NHE wrote:
ratchasisaku wrote:Thanks for replying immediately.... Actually its not very much miserable..I just feel tired, slight head ache and cold is coming up slightly... So is that okay that I can take the injection...?
I only have my own experience to go by, but you could try it and see how you do.

ok thanks a lot.... and can I have one more information...? Do we need to take this Avonex for more than 2 years too...since you said that you are using Avonex for 10 years i am asking you....
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6227
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by NHE »

ratchasisaku wrote:ok thanks a lot.... and can I have one more information...? Do we need to take this Avonex for more than 2 years too...since you said that you are using Avonex for 10 years i am asking you....
As far as I know, there is no time limit on taking Avonex. It is an ongoing therapy to hopefully reduce the number of relapses an MS patient experiences. As stated in Biogen's literature for Avonex, it is not a cure for MS. As long as you and your doctor feel that you are deriving benefit from it and are tolerating the side effects all right, then you would keep taking it. However, that's really a question that I can't answer. You should discuss these issues with your doctor.

Here are links to Biogen's literature which may be helpful for you...

Avonex Prescribing Information
http://www.avonex.com/pdfs/Avonex_Presc ... mation.pdf

Avonex Medication Guide
http://www.avonex.com/pdfs/Avonex_Medication_Guide.pdf
User avatar
Scott1
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by Scott1 »

Hi,

Interferon is really a signalling agent. Interferon Beta activates Natural Killer cells and encourages their proliferation. The NK cells attack cells which exhibit atypical patterns of MHC class I expression or, in plain English, cells that are virally infected. The original Avonex boxes had a leaflet in them that proclaimed the antiviral activity. I don't think they do that anymore.
The problem with viruses is they highjack the machinery of the cell. They are not alive but behave as though they were. If they were alive they would generate energy and would not need to use the cell to replicate. They are an arrangement of nucleic acids that alters the behaviour of the cell. As a result they are difficult to completely eliminate.
The Avonex manufacturers note does not proclaim they know what causes MS but you would have to assume they say there is efficacy because it is antiviral.
If you want to finally come off Avonex then adding an antiviral would speed up the process. That would mean you would need to be tested for viruses and take a recognised medication that treats the capacity for them to replicate. In particular herpes family viruses stay resident in cells and can erupt into activity for a lifetime.
I took Avonex for 10 years and hated every dose. I wish I knew then what I know now. I continue to pursue an antiviral path and no longer take Avonex. That didn't stop me having attacks but I feel comfortable that time I took Avonex for had reached its conclusion.

Regards,
chenman
Family Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:29 am

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by chenman »

Scott1 wrote:Hi,
(...)
The Avonex manufacturers note does not proclaim they know what causes MS but you would have to assume they say there is efficacy because it is antiviral.
(...)
Hi,
it is quite strange that they always talk about a viral cause.
A century ago there were millions of people infected with syphilis, which is a bacterial disease. Many of those with late stage neurosyphilis (with the causal bacterium Treponema pallidum in their CNS) had symptoms similar to MS. This shows that bacteria, especially spirochetes, might be the cause of MS!

In the early 1980s the cause of "Lyme", transmitted by ticks, was discovered by Willy Burgdorfer: another spirochete, which was named after him: Borrelia burgdorferi.
This bacterium is quite similar to T.pallidum, which causes syphilis, including the late stage neurospirochetosis. This of course is called (late CNS) neuroborreliosis. ("Lyme" is age old, has been known in Europe for at least 150 years. It was even known that it could be cured with penicillin, which indicates that it is a bacterial disease, since penicillin is without effect in viral diseases.)

Now consider this:
-- You may be infected with this tick borreliosis without remembering a tick bite or any early symptoms. This could have been in childhood, either not recognised at all or long forgotten.
-- This (always) chronic infection normally remains silent / latent for years, even decades, as long as your immune system is in good shape, capable to keep the "bugs" under control. But once your immune system becomes impaired, i.e. under massive stress (cortisol going up, which suppresses the immune system) the borrelia may multiply and cause a myriad of possible disorders in many organs, prominently in the nervous system, including optic neuritis. Headaches are very common, as is fatigue, depression, paresthesias (numbness etc., muscle aches...), almost everything you might think of.

Therefore this disease is called the "new great imitator" - the old one was chronic syphilis.
Penicillin is effective in "Lyme", but doxycycline from the tetracycline group of abx is better:
2-3 weeks of cheap doxy is the standard therapy for "Lyme" (2-3x 100 mg per day).

But it is difficult to cure late neuroborreliosis permanently: in the CNS, behind the blood brain barrier (BBB) the spirochetes are not easily eliminated and may cause problems over decades, varying in time and space...
What seems to be littel recognised: late CNS neuroborreliosis clinically is indistinguishable from MS! Thererfore MS might well be a special, severe form of late neuroborreliosis. (MS has an undisputed genetic = hereditary predisposition: this could include an impaired immune defence aganist B.burgdorferi, impaired antibody production, so the borreliae might more easily reach the CNS and stay there indefinitely, if not cured.)
------------------------------------------------------------

All this (normally) is not told you by neurologists. According to guidelines they do a few standard borreliosis tests, which typically turn out to be "negative" (possibly because of impaired immune defence against B.burgdorferi, see above) and assume that you cannot have chronic neuroborreliosis. (This is wishful thinking: those routine test are unable to reliably exclude chronic B.burgdorferi infection.)
When I had my first MS(-like) symptoms in the early 1990s (under massive, continuous stress) I remembered my many tick bites since childhood - but I was "seronegative" on repeated testing (including "negative" twice in CSF = cerobrospinal fluid). I always thought that I nevertheless might have chronic / late neuroborreliosis:

In 1993 I had a series of a recommended AB for late tick borreliosis / neuroborreliosis, ceftriaxone i.v., and already during the series my headache and some other sensory symptoms (which started with the severe stress) were diminished or gone - but unfortunately slowly reappeared over the following months.
This is a very well-known problem in late neuroborreliosis, which is very hard to cure (see above).

Early in 1996 I tried oral doxycyclin - and had a positive reaction which would not disappear over time. But I had the impression that I was not really cured, therefore started "pulsing" in the second half of the 1990s, that is taking doxycycline for just tow days per month. (I am an MD, pharmacologist, and know a lot about abx, chronic infections and some tricks to keep them under permanent control.)
In my case this strategy has worked over more than 15 years by now (with just ca. 100x 100 mg doxy PER YEAR, altogether less than 200 g over 2 decades): I am without impairment / disability, close to what could be called a healthy state.
--------------------------------------------------

I want to draw attention to a successful MS therapy study which seems to be completely ignored (possibly because it is from Iran?):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/24250865/
Medical pactice in Iran has a high standard: we really should not ignore this study. Especially since it is a duplication of a 2008 US study (but now with more MS patients and for a longer time):
http://archneur.jamanetwork.com/article ... eid=795219

In both studies just 100 mg/d of doxy were addet to an interferon beta-1a therapy, i.e. Avonex.
The authors of both studies are not talking about an antimicrobial action (but who knows? see above) but of some immun(omodulary) effects of this class of abx, poorly understood...

"...There is growing interest in combination therapy in patients with MS to stabilize the clinical course, reduce the rate of clinical relapses, and decelerate the progressive course of the underlying pathologic mechanism.25 The scientific rationale behind the concept of combination therapy in MS is to block different pathogenic pathways by applying different agents with dissimilar mechanisms of action, which translates into additive or synergistic therapeutic effects. ..." That is reasonable, isn't it?

You might think about adding doxy to your Avonex therapy (perhaps get a prescription from your GP? -- print those two papers and show them to your neurologist...?).
I have been in good shape on a minimum amount of doxy alone (see above) for almost 20 years by now (but no neurologist wants to know - I have tried time and again!). They also do not want to know about this book, written by an eminent specialist on MS, Prof. Gabriel Steiner (1883-1965) at the end of his decade-long research in 1962 (written in German, because G.Steiner was born in Ulm / Germany, like A.Einstein, was a Jew like Einstein and emigrated to the US in the 1930s like Einstein - but unlike Einstein had no Nobel Prize, was not famous -- but simply forgotton to this day):
http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2 ... 42-87571-7

If you scroll down on this SPRINGER page to the chapter "Die Spirochaeta myelophthora", click on "Look inside" there and go to the second page offered for preview (p.37 of the book) you see 4x4 = 16 micrographs showing spirochetes in active MS lesions in the CNS.
Later on in the book they were classified as borreliae, 1962(!), 2 decades before W.Burgdorfer detected borreliae in the ticks he had collected: could this be chance?

I personally am convinced that the cause of MS has been "known" / documented in the scientific literature for many decades - but simply ignored / forgotten.
chenman
User avatar
Scott1
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by Scott1 »

Hi,

Without invalidating anything Chenman has said, it likely MS is multifactorial. A viral cause such as EBV is often implicated and bacterial infections are often suggested. Combination therapies are fine and probably wise as long as you have a reasonable basis to follow them. Do get tested for as many things as you possibly can. Mycoplasma, rickettsia, Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella, EBV, chlamydia are all suspicious. There is no magic bullet but be as informed as you can be by testing. Knowledge always beats guessing.

Regards,
chenman
Family Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:29 am

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by chenman »

Scott1 wrote:Hi,

Without invalidating anything Chenman has said, it likely MS is multifactorial. A viral cause such as EBV is often implicated and bacterial infections are often suggested. Combination therapies are fine and probably wise as long as you have a reasonable basis to follow them. Do get tested for as many things as you possibly can. Mycoplasma, rickettsia, Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella, EBV, chlamydia are all suspicious. There is no magic bullet but be as informed as you can be by testing. Knowledge always beats guessing.

Regards,
Well Scott,
if we assume for the moment that MS is one disease, like Tbc, or influenza, or syphils, polio, AIDS, malaria..., then it has one cause, and that is chronic neuroborreliosis (in the CNS, not PNS).
This is what is normal in medicine, in medical science: one infectious disease has one cause, one causal agent. (That's what is called a nosolocical unit, as far as I know.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosology

Take for example this paper from Norway 2001:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787831
"...BACKGROUND:
The aim of the study was to search for infectious agents in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of patients with multiple sclerosis (MS).
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
CSF from ten patients with the diagnosis relapsing remitting MS and from five controls without MS were examined by transmission electron microscopy (TEM), dark field microscopy (DF), interference contrast microscopy (ICM) and UV-microscopic examination of acridine orange staining (AO). All CSF samples from patients and controls were cultured.
RESULTS:
Cystic structures were observed in CSF of all ten patients ... ..."

In all ten of ten patients investigated!
And in one of five controls - and this one "had suffered from erythema migrans" - which in itself is diagnostic of tick borreliosis ("Lyme"), without further serologic testing. (I do not have the paper at hand to look for details, read it 14 years ago in 2001, when it was published and a collegue handed me over a copy because he knew I had been talking about neuroborreliosis as the cause of MS for years already.)

So there IS a magic bullet. In syphilis for example penicillin is the magic bullet. In "Lyme" it is doxycycline, which I have taken for 20 years by now (17 days early in 1996 and "pulsing" 2 days per month from about 1998 onward: I got better, my memory is near perfect, no disability at age 70, I have my own joints etc. ...)

About a hundred years ago a spirochetal origin of MS was the major hypothesis. Prof. Gabriel Steiner (at that time at the university of Heidelberg) proved this hypothesis in several steps: In 1922 he presented evidence that the hypothetical infection is transmitted by ticks, and in the late 1920s he started to publish his pathohistologic findings, a major 200 page review in 1931:
http://www.amazon.com/Krankheitserreger ... einer+1931

In 1962, then in Detroit, the spirochetes had been classified as borreliae.
http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2 ... 42-87571-7
Now he could list more than half a dozen other research groups who had confirmed his discovery with other methods, i.e. cultivation of spirochetes from MS CSF (cf. the Broson paper 2001 cited above) at Stanford neurology department
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/13608292/

Some groups were not able to reproduce that, but several were, which has the higher weight, i.e. in 1958
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... hetes+1958

In the meantime there is much more evidence confirming the discoveries of G.Steiner, including the transmission by ticks, mainly by ticks (horseflies might be involved in a few cases).
I have searched such evidence all the time: It is a big puzzle, and the parts fit well, yield a very clear picture...
----------------------------------------------------

In the second chapter of his 1962 book G.Steiner argues at lenght that MS is a nosological unit, one disease with one cause.
At this time the genetic predisposition was not yet clear, as it is now, undisputed. But there are more than 100 "MS risk genes", which suggests that in the individual case MS could be "individual": depending on your individual genetic background the course and pathohistology of the same chronic infection probably will be more or less different, individual. (In some patients MS starts as early as in childhood or adolescence, in some in early adulthood, and in some later, just to give an example how different genes might change the appearance of MS.)

In Russia they have investigated the possibility of parallel MS and "Lyme":
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677681
Unfortunately I do not have the paper (to find someone to help read / understand it). No (email) adress is given in PubMed, but it should be no (major) problem to find that, a few minutes of Goolge searching...

I need not be convinced because I know the "truth", have known it for at least 2 decades:
MS and late CNS neuroborreliosis have the same cause, but MS is the severe form because of genetic factors being different from the general population. (In principle different genetic species of B.burgdorferi could make a difference, but all are ?amenable to causel therapy with cheap doxycycline, available in every pharmacy, a drug on the WHO list of essential drugs for decades already.)
-----------------------------------------------------

This view certainly is irritating: MS could have been causally treatable from the mid 1960 onward? I am convinced that this is true.
The McDonald diagostic criteria may not be as sharp as the pathohistological criteria used by neuro(phatho)logist Prof. Gabriel Steiner, therefore a subgroup (possibly several small subgroups) of MS diagnosed according to the McDonald criteria might turn out to have a differen etiology... (Co-infections? Ticks can transmit quite a number of co-infections. But many of them are treated / treatable by doxycycline...)

G.Steiner died 50 years ago: It is high time to recognise his magnificent work and take up the work where he had left it as an old man.
I guess that it would take a few days (a few weeks at most) to stain tissue sections of MS CNS (from brain banks, available in ?dozens of neuropathology institutions around the world) with immuno-fluorescent antibodies agains B.burgdorferi, especially B.gariini, and confirm the findings of Prof. Steiner. (In fact one neuropathologist, Dr. Judith Miklossy, has told me that she has done this and confirmed the G.Steiner findings. But she "battles uphill" to get some recognition for her discovery of spirochetes as the cause of Alzheimer's disease, which certainly is more important than MS...)

The MS enigma has been solved MANY decades ago: all we have to do is recognise it, then draw the consequences (like I have done 2 decades ago - and tried to spread the good news, but without resonance...).
---------------------------------------------

MS progression has to be viewed as something different: iron in the CNS (i.e. from small "micro" bleedings) plays a major role, I am convinced; I started to get rid of my stored iron at the end of 1993 and have kept my serum ferritin low for about 2 decades...)

I hope we can find a way to get things ?rolling in this forum. (I have tried so many times...)
chenman
User avatar
Scott1
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by Scott1 »

Well Chenman,

Keep trying. MS is an infectious disease in your view?

You are not the first to suggest Lyme and its coinfections. You are not the first to suggest doxycycline.

I am glad your approach has worked for you but I do not have the infections you allude to and I have been tested for them. I and others have tried doxycycline.
Steiners work is well known and he is highly regarded by those who tested me for Lyme. I don't believe I fit your model.

Regards,
chenman
Family Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:29 am

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by chenman »

Scott1 wrote:Well Chenman,

Keep trying. MS is an infectious disease in your view?

You are not the first to suggest Lyme and its coinfections. You are not the first to suggest doxycycline.

I am glad your approach has worked for you but I do not have the infections you allude to and I have been tested for them. I and others have tried doxycycline.
Steiners work is well known and he is highly regarded by those who tested me for Lyme. I don't believe I fit your model.

Regards,
"...I do not have the infections you allude to and I have been tested for them."
Which infections do you mean? MS - according to G.Steiner - has ONE cause, just one: Borreliae (transmitted by ticks), obviously identical to B.burgdorferi.

I admit that a group of MS patients diagnosed by (modern =) McDonald criteria may not be part of the nosological unit MS as defined by G.Steiner decades ago.
But the 10 out of 10 result of Brorson et al. 2001 is a very strong argument that such "non-neuroborreliosis" groups within modern MS diagonstic criteria will be small. (One might argue that Southern Norway is somehow special as far as MS etiologiy is concerned, but at least in Central Europe the etiology seems to be similar.)

What has to be accepted: The "Lyme" serological tests cannot reliably exclude chronic tick borreliosis. I just read a paper by Dr. Kenneth B. Liegner (NY) of 1993, which is revealing:
http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view= ... id=8370722

I think my suggestion is very reasonable to consider the possibility that the genetic predisposition for MS may include an insufficient antibody response to an infection with B.burgdorferi. That would mean that many (possibly most) MS patients will not show "positive" test results. (This has to do with the concept of molecular mimicry: "bugs" have antigens on their surface very similar to human antigens, in this case antigens in a subgroup genetically predisposed for MS, with the double consequence of a) being "sero-negative" and b) more ?ease for the borreliae to reach the CNS, enter it and infect it chronically.)

With the AB insensitive cystic restings forms of B.b (cf. the paper of Brorson et al. 2001) in the CSF you cannot expect to get permanently cured.
Thats why I do the "pulses" once a month: to eliminate those borreliae which have re-converted from the AB insensitive form to the ?vegetative / multiplying spirochetal form, which alone is sensitive to suitable abx.

The usual strategy is to take high dose abx over extended time (like in all therapy studies I know). Reasonable however is the "pulsing", proposed by microbiology prof. Vera Preac-Mursic around 1990: hit / weaken the borreliae by a high dose pulse and let the immune system do the rest, clear the battlefield and get traind that way over and over again. For me once per months (with high dose doxy for just two days, to get an effective concentration behind the BBB) has worked for over 15 years.
I suppose such a strategy (with a minimum of effort, abx and cost) will work for others, probably for the majority of CIS and RR-MS patients. That's what practically anybody can try (because of tolerability and cost) and see if it works for him or her.
chenman
chenman
Family Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:29 am

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by chenman »

Scott1 wrote:Well Chenman,
(... ...)
Steiners work is well known and he is highly regarded by those who tested me for Lyme. I don't believe I fit your model.

Regards,
Are we talking about Prof. Gabriel Steiner (1883-1965)?
I don't think his work is "well known". (As far as I am aware the core of his discoveries, his arguments is completely unknown / ignored: MS is caused by an active focal infection of the CNS by borreliae. MS could be stopped by an atimicrobial agent entering the CNS and effective against the causal borreliae; he tested both penicillin and the "early" tetracyclines which were available to him in the 1950s, but unfortunately could not test doxycycline which became available in the mid-1960s, after his death.)

1. I searchted this forum and found only referrals to G.Steiner associated with SSCVI and the book etc. of Dr. A. Schelling / Austria.
2. I have read the papers of Dr. Schelling available on the internet many years ago and was really annoyed that he quotes the G.Steiner work - but only concerning some figures on the pathological anatomy of MS, i.e. in chapter 3 of the 1962 Steiner book (all from my memory, I would have to read Schelling again...).
I have the very strong impression that Dr. Schelling never read the whole "story", possibly has only a few copies of those pages he was interested in. (Sort of selectiv perception.)

3. This also seems to be the case with Dr. Paul Thibault: He "cites" Steiner (books 1931, 1962; I posted links to the originals), but completely ommits the central theme / finding of G.Steiner, the borreliae infecting the CNS, namely the active MS lesions (which develop around infected / inflammed small veins).

G.Steiner argues that the causative spirochetes (borreliae) seem to invade the CNS from the CSF spaces / ventricles along the veins, which results in the "Dawson fingers". Thibault argues similarly - but now centered around highly specutlative thoughts about Cpn being the causal "invading" agent. That is absurd!
Borreliae are (normally) extracellular, mobile, can actively advance in tissue (which can be seen in EM = erythema migrans, slowly spreading from a tick bite). Cpn is intracellular, immobile - how could such primitive organisms actively advance along veins / Dawson fingers?

Please explain in some detail what you have heard about "Steiner" from those testing you for "Lyme".
Thanks,
chenman
User avatar
Scott1
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by Scott1 »

Hi,

He work was well known to the doctor who insisted I was tested. What you talk about was shoved down my throat every time I saw him and I have been tested in Germany, the US and Australia. Each time there was nothing to confirm I had such an infection and a lot of excuses to keep looking. I no longer see that doctor as he has become Don Quixote and using my money to tilt at windmills. He has uncovered a lot of infection of the variety you suggest but not with me. Please don't paint yourself into a corner. You obviously have a lot to contribute.
Regards,
Last edited by Scott1 on Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
chenman
Family Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:29 am

Re: New to forum but old to MS

Post by chenman »

Scott1 wrote:Hi,
(...) Please don't paint yourself into a corner. ...
Regards,
??? Have to learn the meaning of this ?riddle...
------------------------------------------------
Hello ratchasisaku,
please excuse the OT posts.
Best wishes,
chenman
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Introductions”