Hello

[jimmylegs]

ok great info. looks like daily intake is less than half what you need ideally.

aim for 200 mcg se for routine daily maintenance, increasing to 400 mcg per day when fighting infection.

2 brazil nuts are generally considered adequate to achieve daily maintenance intake. including these as part of a daily 1/4c of trail mix may be beneficial for helping to fight off infection.

i went looking for potential turkish equivalents and found this as a starting point

Turkish Tombul Hazelnut (Corylus avellana L.). 1. Compositional Characteristics
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0212385

checked out selenium content - no deal. 60mg per 100mg serving so over 300 g or est. over ~ 3 c. needed to meet daily maintenance requirements. still, as an ingredient in trail mix, couldn't hurt (unless allergic, of course)

[Zyklon]

If you recommend more selenium as an antioxidant, I still take lots of other antioxidants. 60-80 mcg is very very low estimation. I am sure lots of days I can hit 200+. Thanks J ;)

[jimmylegs]

nope, as per yesterday http://www.thisisms.com/forum/introduct ... ml#p250743

this:
on selenium and infection: http://bit.ly/2js2f2G

a search on terms selenium and antioxidant would have rendered quite a different list of results than the above.

also keying in on the infection aspect, note in the above "increasing to 400 mcg per day when fighting infection."

could be worthwhile to see what a serum selenium test result might have to say about the efficacy of status quo

[Zyklon]

Now a very weird post

My lovely wife called me and said she met a friend that had a relative with misdiagnosed MS but Lyme and told igenex. I am borrelia burgdorferi IgG positive with 29.3 U/ml and IgM negative with 8.3 U/ml, both elisa. I know I can not trust igenex because of high false positives. According to what I read, my experience is somewhat different than others. So I need to rule out lyme. What do you recommend?

Really small update: Mild upper respiratory infection, resisting antibiotics and happily living with 37.8 fever.

Thanks, take care ;)

[jimmylegs]

first cut in vivo stuff not providing any clear direction

Serum levels of copper, selenium and manganese in forestry workers testing IgG positive for Brucella, Borrelia, and Rickettsia
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf
"The concentration of the examined metals did not show statistically significant difference between IgG-positive subjects versus subjects with Borrelia compared to controls."

gonna dig in on the full text

[jimmylegs]

copper looks okay, but we don't have a zinc number to get a handle on the ratio

se Mn in borreliosis
0.28 + 0.16 µg/dl

in study controls
0.317 + 0.237 µg/dl

se Mn in other healthy controls
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19582379
The serum concentration of Mn ... were 0.4163 +/- 0.2527 mg/L in control subjects

units seem messed up, will see if i can find a different one...

http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/1_Supp ... 02.5.short
Average serum manganese level was 10.49 µg/dl in male and 6.11 µg/dl in females

interim assessment: manganese studies are annoying.

Reference Values ...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2X97800326
The adult plasma reference values ... 14.3 ± 11,4 nmol/1 for manganese

so now what does conversion get us from that... ng/mL 18.2 nmol/L ...

OK so 0.786 ng/ml *which* does not play nice units-wise with 0.4 in mg/L OR 0.237 in ug/dl

ok none of this makes sense i'm done with manganese. ffs.


i know we already dug in on selenium a bit above, but

se Se in borelliosis
6.24 + 5.12 μg/dl = 62.4 ug/l

in study controls
8.65 + 6.22 μg/dl = 86.5 ug/l

other healthy controls
89.2 ± 20.9 ug/l (so up to 110)

Serum Selenium Levels and All-Cause, Cancer, and Cardiovascular Mortality Among US Adults
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamain ... cle/414000
The mean serum selenium level was 125.6 ng/ml
Increasing serum selenium levels were associated with decreased mortality up to 130 ng/mL. Our study, however, raises the concern that higher serum selenium levels may be associated with increased mortality

Serum selenium and diabetes in U.S. adults
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17392543
126.8 ng/ml in participants with diabetes and 124.7 ng/ml in participants without diabetes

rando online reference range
48.2 to 124.00 µg/L
looks like the top third could be a decent place to be

no serum info but a good review:
Dietary selenium in adjuvant therapy of viral and bacterial infections
http://advances.nutrition.org/content/6/1/73.short

and this fun!!!:

Effect of Brazil nut supplementation on the blood levels of selenium and glutathione peroxidase in hemodialysis patients
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0709003463
"Abstract
In patients who have undergone hemodialysis, large amounts of reactive oxygen species (ROS) are produced and, at higher concentrations, ROS are thought to be involved in the pathogenesis of cardiovascular disease. It has been proposed that selenium (Se) may exert an antiatherogenic influence by reducing oxidative stress. The richest known food source of selenium is the Brazil nut (Bertholletia excelsa, family Lecythidaceae), found in the Amazon region. We evaluated the effect of Brazil nut supplementation on blood levels of Se and glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px) activity in patients on hemodialysis.
Methods
A total of 81 patients on hemodialysis (52.0 ± 15.2 y old, average time on dialysis 82.3 ± 91.4 mo, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.4 kg/m2) from the RenalCor and RenalVida Clinics in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, were studied. All patients received one nut (around 5 g, averaging 58.1 μg Se/g) a day for 3 mo. The Se concentrations in the nuts and in plasma and erythrocytes were determined by atomic absorption spectrophotometry with hydride generation (Hitachi, Z-500). GSH-Px levels were measured using Randox commercial kits.
Results
Plasma Se (18.8 ± 17.4 μg/L) and erythrocyte (72.4 ± 37.9 μg/L) levels were below the normal range before nut supplementation. After supplementation, the plasma level increased to 104.0 ± 65.0 μg/L and erythrocytes to 244.1 ± 119.5 μg/L (P < 0.0001). The activity of GSH-Px also increased after supplementation, from 46.6 ± 14.9 to 55.9 ± 23.6 U/g of hemoglobin (P < 0.0001). Before supplementation, 11% of patients had GSH-Px activity below the normal range (27.5–73.6 U/g of hemoglobin). After supplementation, all patients showed GSH-Px activity within the normal range.
Conclusion
The data revealed that the investigated patients presented Se deficiency and that the consumption of only one Brazil nut a day (5 g) during 3 mo was effective to increase the Se concentration and GSH-Px activity in these patients, thus improving their antioxidant status."

yay, got em into the top third! but hmm only 60mg per day from one nut :S i have been operating under the impression that one nut is closer to 100mg se. at least they work

aside: @THX take this under advisement for your forthcoming research pls ;)

@z the numbers for se look actionable to my eye.

might be time for a selenium test???

being less familiar with selenium testing i looked it up to find this:

http://labtestsonline.org.uk/understand ... /tab/test/
"Serum/plasma selenium concentrations correspond to recent selenium intake whereas the measurement of whole blood selenium or glutathione peroxidase activity correlates with longer-term selenium status."

that time i stumped google scholar: https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en ... m%22&btnG=

manganese i don't have the patience for. it's past my bedtime apparently!!

[jimmylegs]

also i'd read a study demonstrating improved abx efficacy when adding i think it was zinc, but i can't find it atm.

[jimmylegs]

this is not it, but interesting nonetheless. hadn't seen this one before now:

At the Nexus of Antibiotics and Metals: The Impact of Cu and Zn on Antibiotic Activity and Resistance
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2X17300987

"While Zn binding adversely impacts penicillins and tetracycline, for the most part and where studied, it has no impact on antibiotic activity or it enhances activity (e.g., for some quinolones [109,112]), though the degree of enhancement varies with the organism being studied... Cu and Zn can also aid antimicrobial killing of bacteria. There are, for example, several reports of metal–drug synergy, particularly involving Zn. Zn exhibits synergy with carbapenems and fluoroquinolones against P. aeruginosa biofilms [125] and is synergistic with ceftazidime and tobramycin vs. laboratory and clinical strains of P. aeruginosa[126]. Zn also potentiates the activities of ciprofloxacin and ceftazidime vs. MDR Acinetobacter baumannii[127] and shows synergy with β-lactams vs. β-lactamase-producing Gram-negative pathogens [128]. Zn potentiation of several antibiotics, particularly β-lactams and aminoglycosides, vs. S. aureus has also been demonstrated [129]. Zn also shows synergy with a synthetic AMP, ARVA, against S. aureus and P. aeruginosa[130]. Less commonly reported to potentiate antibiotic activity, Cu does synergize with certain synthetic AMPs vs. Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria [130], and, together with quaternary ammonium compounds (QACs), exerts synergistic bactericidal and antibiofilm activity vs. P. aeruginosa[131]. Whether the synergy reflects metal influences on antibiotic activity directly or their combined stresses enhance the activity of one or the other of these agents is unclear."

so, which antibiotic are you on atm?

[Zyklon]

No antibiotics. I don't want to mess up my body.

Selenium test on the way. Nowadays I read about lyme disease.

[jimmylegs]

ah ok i see. i had thought you said you had an abx resistant infection. i thought that meant you were taking abx, and they weren't working.

plenty of lyme research out there. not quite enough so far, on lyme interactions with essential nutrients!!

looking forward to se test result.

[jimmylegs]

revisiting stupid serum manganese

SI conversion factor ng/mL 18.2 nmol/L

se mn
in borreliosis subjects.................................0.28 ± 0.16.......µg/dL (must have meant µg/L)
in borresliosis study controls.........................0.317 ± 0.237....µg/dL (must have meant µg/L)
in other study controls................................0.4163 ± 0.25....mg/L (they have to have meant µg/L)
low reference values (Belgium) study..............0.571..............µg/L (10.4 nmol/L ) (1:1 conversion from ng/ml)
next lowest (Great Britain)...........................0.582.............µg/L (1:1 conversion from ng/ml)...^ same study
'testing mn is hard' study mean......................0.593..............µg/L (1:1 conversion from ng/ml)..^ same study
there's raw data in this ^ study - you can compare values for individual men and women, see how some subjects' levels vary at different test times.
in other study females................................0.61...............µg/L (converted from 6.11 µg/dL)
study (plasma) mean .................................0.786..............µg/L (converted from 14.3 ± 11.4 nmol/l)
study (plasma) mean..................................0.879..............µg/L (converted from 16.0 nmol/L)
in other study males...................................1.05...............µg/L (converted from 10.49 µg/dL)
other study reference mean..........................1.82 ± 0.64......µg/L

rando lab site reference range......................0.0-2.0...............µg/L (umm 0!?!!)

*NOW* think we have arrived at actionable serum manganese info. was just my luck to land on the studies with the goofiest units issues first.

serum mn means were lowest of all in borreliosis subjects. can test to make sure you are not in their ballpark.

[jimmylegs]

sweet i eat 4 of the top 5 healthy dietary mn sources regularly
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart

[jimmylegs]

as for selenium

HEALTH EFFECTS OF SELENIUM SUPPLEMENTATION: CHEMICAL FORM AND DOSE HOLD THE KEY (2015)
https://search.proquest.com/openview/8e ... cbl=136101
"Some researchers have used inorganic form of Se, sodium selenite, which is less bioavailable and may be toxic if used for prolonged period, while others have opted for organic form, selenomethionine, which may incorporate non-specifically into proteins. In recent times, other organic forms, methylselenocysteine and selenocysteine, being less toxic, more bioavailable and endowed with greater therapeutic value against cancer have attracted the attention of research community. Moreover, appropriate dose (up to 200μg Se per day) may hold the key to bring perceptible beneficial health effects."

[Zyklon]

Still recovering and much better. I did not use any medicine for fever and no abx. 400 mcg selenium, plenty antioxidants and zinc.

I can drink a glass of wine, whisky or beer without any problems.

Stress is not a relapse maker for now. Plenty of stress in the last days.

Tests on the way, curious about lyme.

J, whatever you say works on me, thanks ;)

[jimmylegs]

yassss selenium FTW

do pls drop back to max 200 mcg/d (with emphasis on food sources as usual) once your symptoms clear up.

was so interested to read below re methylselenocysteine and selenocysteine, vs selenomethionine (which last is the form i tend to encounter as the best off-the-shelf option in any non-food selenium product - including my semi-beloved AOR).

will have to have a scout around next time i'm restocking on things.

glad you are feeling better!