You don't need to look anymore

[jimmylegs]

google books didn't link to that content, but I seem to have found the text here: https://archive.org/stream/s3transactio ... l_djvu.txt

it's from 1921 .. the era of flawed methodologies described via your other link.
sample study design:
"In the first experiment two splenectomized dog^ were employed that had been rendered anemic as a result of weekly bleedings of 100 cc for two and a half months. These dogs were observed for a period of nearly two months; blood counts were made every second or third day. In this experiment we may say briefly that the dog that was given the iron returned more rapidly toward normal figures than did the control dog. However, the control animal started with a lower figure than the test animal, and both animals obtained the highest figures at about the same time."

[jimmylegs]

ok finally gotcha. yes iron can be stored in hemoglobin or ferritin, and the ferritin, not being hemoglobin, is non-heme.

BUT it's not like your body takes iron from non-heme dietary sources and allocates it to ferritin storage. not at all. that other study demonstrated it clearly - heme iron intake means ferritin goes up. my ferritin was low when I was vegetarian, and it's high after starting to eat meat again.

"The iron in the ferritin core is stored as Fe(III) in a crystalline solid that has the chemical formula [FeO(OH)]8[FeO(H2PO4)]."

iron is released from ferritin storage when it's needed elsewhere. in heme for example.

Utilization of intracellular ferritin iron for hemoglobin synthesis in developing human erythroid precursors
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23642204
"The results of the present study suggest that intracellular Ferritin donates iron for heme synthesis and that proteolytic ferritin degradation in a lysosmal-like compartment is necessary for iron release and its transfer to heme."

also:

Iron nutrition and premenopausal women: effects of poor iron status on physical and neuropsychological performance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23642204
"Iron is a nutritionally essential trace element that functions through incorporation into proteins and enzymes, many of which contribute to physical and neuropsychological performance. Poor iron status, including iron deficiency (ID; diminished iron stores) and iron deficiency anemia (IDA; poor iron stores and diminished hemoglobin), * affects billions of people worldwide. This review focuses on physical and neuropsychological outcomes associated with ID and IDA in premenopausal women, as the prevalence of ID and IDA is often greater in premenopausal women than other population demographics. Recent studies addressing the physiological effects of poor iron status on physical performance, including work productivity, voluntary activity, and athletic performance, are addressed. Similarly, the effects of iron status on neurological performance, including cognition, affect, and behavior, are summarized. Nutritional countermeasures for the prevention of poor iron status and the restoration of decrements in performance outcomes are described"

* .. that would be your girl, by the looks of her blood work. not a good idea to ignore iron deficiency. if dietary sources aren't cutting it, supplements will help. I noted that copper is needed for iron absorption by the way - might be something to consider in the dietary agenda.

[Celeste485]

"era of flawed methodologies"
You are entitled to your opinion but did they have cancers back then? 1 in 4 Americans taking antidepressants. Obesity, blood pressure, heart disease, autism on the rise. Tell me how many Americans will be able to survive without medicines? Our lifespan would not be better than the people from 1800's if not worse. Most of us are kept alive by artificial means. I dare you to take away all the pills and supplements away from the people and lets see whose mythologies are more flawed.

There was a study of kids who were low on iron during their brain development early in their life. And the researchers concluded that even after supplementation with iron in adulthood these kids were not successful, many of them had many problems with addictions, couldn’t t hold jobs etc... They basically became losers. Their iron deficiency was treated with non heme iron. There has never been a study that tested heme iron in anemia. I am pretty sure if the anemic kids were fed the proper iron, heme iron they would be as successful as anybody else.
You know that after my daughter’s diagnosis and hospital stay I have changed her diet to meat and vegetables and little carbs. And after she started eating meat she was bleeding a lot. It started 2 months after. I believe that there is a reason for this. I think her body was dumping something with the blood or the blood itself. She had to get up sometimes in the middle of the night all covered up in blood. This downpour lasted only 24 hours but now her bleeding is normal. The first 24 hours are still heavier than the following days but it’s about a third less than before.
Remember, she wasn’t diagnosed with anemia when she was in the hospital. Her blood count was normal when she was there and yet she had symptoms of anemia her entire life and especially the year prior to her diagnosis. I think her body purposely dumped the blood at that particular time because her diet changed, she was eating meat. Her regular diet of meat and vegetables somehow made her body stop protecting her and start repairing her. And now her blood is clean and she is flourishing.
Jimmy, I understand that I have to build up her iron level. I also understand that her diet must be lifetime diet for her but I am also pretty sure that she will never experience anything that she experienced in the past 13 years. That era is gone.
When it comes to ferritin however, I will be watching the levels and make my decision then. Right now it’s all about heme iron because this is what she is absorbing, is able to absorb and makes her healthy and feeling good. I am going to let the body decide what it wants and see what happens.

[jimmylegs]

re flawed methodologies, I'm clearly talking about past problems with scientific method and confounding factors.

nothing whatsoever to do with how people behave day to day. or mythology.

I'd be interested to see what other nutrients were low in the kids who were low in iron. what study was that exactly? do you have a link?

curious ,what exactly were the ferritin and hemoglobin numbers when she was in the hospital?

would make sense if the numbers have changed since, that it could have a lot to do with the heavy bleeding you describe. has she been to the doc about that issue specifically?

if your daughter is absorbing heme iron, it will show up in the ferritin AND hemoglobin levels, especially if the bleeding situation is improving.

as mentioned above, a copper test could be in order. just touched on this aspect in general discussion, during conversation with TiMS user 'anonymoose'. healthy controls average about 17 umol/L for serum copper.

interesting info on copper iron interactions here - will have to look for more academic info but this is an interesting intro
http://drlwilson.com/ARTICLES/ANEMIA.htm

[Celeste485]

So we finally went to see a neuro-opthamologist for my daughter’s optic neuritis and he checked her out and told us she has lesions and must have damage behind the eye even if we don’t see it but it’s not the damage, it’s the electrical signals that are causing the vision problems. He thinks she will fully recover from it although it may take some time. He said, we may forget she has the problem and then won’t even notice when it’s gone. He also told us that even though he didn’t see her first mri but he looked at the last one, he examined her and he can say with certainty that” she doesn’t have clinical presence of ms. She is perfect.”
He told us many people have messed up brains and yet function normally and some don’t show anything and cannot function at all. He knows all about brain and he doesn’t see anything at this time that would support the diagnosis of ms in our daughter.
So what do you think about this?

[jimmylegs]

I think you're paying attention early enough to have caught things before they manifest in a way that shows up on mri. excellent!

conduction of electrical impulses in the body are pure nutrition (and hydration).

not scientific literature, but fwiw:
"... electrolytes – specifically magnesium, calcium, chloride, sodium and potassium – work with water in maintaining fluid and electrolyte homeostasis, in generating and conducting electrical impulses across cell membranes, in nerve transmission, muscle function and cognition. Our body fluids, i.e., blood, cerebrospinal fluid, perspiration etc., are, in fact, a combination of water and dilute solutions of electrolytes. Any imbalance or inadequacy of these elements can result in impaired or slowed muscle function, nerve transmission, cognition and, in severe cases, death."

[Celeste485]

It’s all about diet isn’t it? Low sodium, no fluid retention. Brain doesn’t have the capacity to hold too much fluids so hydration and electrolytes are very important for proper brain function. Now, if we add injury to the brain/myelin these things are even more needed on regular basis. Not just water but also eating fruits like watermelons can help. So, eating and drinking frequently is a must.
But I still have to say that my bet is on iron as the main brain food. Low iron in the body can impact metabolism, it can change everything. Including oxygen delivery. There is a girl in North Carolina who was diagnosed with ms at the age 18. She is a cross country runner and when she runs, she doesn’t feel anything but when she stops her coach has to catch her because she can’t feel her legs. I am pretty sure her body compensates and allows her to function. How the compensation works exactly, that’s something we should be looking at too.
Bodybuilders are also having the same problem. They are frequently low on iron but when they exercise they don’t have a problem, they get weak after they stop. Even though they don’t get ms they experience the same feeling of weakness which I am pretty sure is connected to oxygen delivery not just to brain but other muscles.
Then we have a lot of marathon runners with ms, they have the same oxygen issue as the girl and the body builders.
And then there is this interesting thing I have observed myself that many people with ms are tall and big. Dr. Wahls herself is one of these people. Ann Romney is tall, so it’s Jack Osborne. And I think that the rapid growth in some people when it is not supported by higher amount of iron will cause a disease in them. The rapid growth in bodybuilders muscles is a perfect example of that. My daughter was huge when she was in my born and then again at the age 10-13 where she grew very tall very fast. During these periods of growth or excessive iron loss is when disease develops.
Bodybuilders pay attention to their diets, they measure and weigh their foods, and correct it as soon the first symptoms appear, they eat more meat and clams to correct the iron needs because they know that non heme iron absorption is very low. They need quick results so they use heme iron. This is why they don’t develop ms.
And maybe this is why my daughter is doing so well. Because of the quick change in her diet the disease didn’t have time to develop.

[jimmylegs]

i agree diet is seriously underrated.
I suspect that many athletes have simple neuro manifestations of nutrient deficit, diagnosed as ms due to simple lack of comprehension. will be interesting to see what future historians have to say about it all.
I also think it's dangerous to focus exclusively on iron without considering the complexity of the rest of the system. of course iron is an essential nutrient. but there are 30 odd others to consider as well, each with a vital role to play.

[Kronk]

It’s all about diet isn’t it?

How do you explain the prevalence of MS in 1st world countries where we have diets made up of red meat and other foods containing iron and most if not all of the other essential elements. Bodybuilders, runners, and other athletes typically take a multivitamin. Bodybuilders for sure eat a lot of calories and by default would get a significant amount of minerals. I just doubt that MS is caused by a low element or nutrient... Poor nutrition may help create the "perfect storm" required to spawn MS but I have had a well balanced diet since I was a kid, exercised regularly, slept well, etc.. And I know of vegans and vegetarians who have MS. It doesn't really add up being that many in 3rd world countries have terrible diets lacking in many essentials. Also it doesn't speak to the geography and latitude of MS. There should be a lot more people with MS if diet was the key.

A better argument may be that pwMS are lacking the specific enzyme(s) required to process certain elements or nutrients. That could explain the genetic link and many other facts.

[jimmylegs]

diets aren't great in first world countries. hence the public health focus on correcting systemic problems that create huge economic burdens due to preventable chronic diseases.

multivitamins don't necessarily cut it - not all are created equal, and it depends what a person is eating in combination with said multi.

there are well researched deficiencies that are experienced by athletes. I can link you up to a long history of chats on that topic here at tims, if you are interested in the details. I've coached a personal friend through this exact situation as well. I have a copy of the bloodwork showing the problems manifesting from her outwardly healthy lifestyle. in the end it all came down to food choices (multi and all) paired with excess exertion.

lots of people would say they ate healthily growing up but that they have learned that what they thought was healthy was not necessarily balanced enough for good health.

many would suggest that the latitude piece is linked to vit D, which would tend to be low in everyone at northern latitudes, so why don't we all have ms closer to the poles? and why is japan an exception to the rule when it comes to ms in particular? because it's not just micronutrients, it's macronutrients, personal habits, combinations, ratios, genetics, all mixed up together.

and as for genetics - what about epigenetics? genetic expression is certainly influenced by nutrition.

on average, vegetarians and vegans have parallel nutrient issues to those seen in ms patients. I had amazing benefits with just a dumbed down easy version of the klenner protocol for ms. it hits on a bunch of different nutrients that are known to be subpar in ms patients (it misses vit D but that's because it's older)

as for the saturated fat idea, that is probably a thing for some ms patients, but certainly not all. i ended up with an ms dx in spite of no saturated fat or red meat in my diet whatsoever. as a vegan I certainly would have had insufficient protein and a crap omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acid ratio.

dietary protein is a good tie in to enzymes...

enzymes bring us back to diet and nutrition again.. where exactly do enzymes come from, and how are we able to use them (or not)?

I could go on in detail with supporting research ad nauseum, but I have some academic deadlines to worry about and shouldn't really be here at all today

[Kronk]

I agree that diets may play a part, but there are 100's of millions of North Americans and Europeans with worse diets than I had but they do not have MS. It's not all about diet. There is much more to this disease.

[jimmylegs]

the dietary problems that are experienced in different combinations across populations would certainly be expected to manifest differently in different people. all the same, most people can be reasonably certain of running up against some sort of chronic illness at some point in their lives, whether it's linked to deficiency, imbalance, or excess. another increasingly recognized part of the picture is the nutritional status of mom during an individual's early development. all kinds of different ways that could roll out. complex stuff.

[Celeste485]

Diet is the most important thing not only in ms but in other diseases as well. I purposely mentioned the body compensation mechanism because I believe this plays an important role in our lives. During growth the body needs for minerals/vitamins goes up but not everyone eats more and disease will happen.
Scoliosis for example is one other example of growth that is not supported by the consumption of probably bone forming minerals. Your spine will curve because the diet you eat will not support your growth. You cannot grow tall but you can still function a little crooked. The fact that scoliosis happens to predominantly women and predominantly of young age during the fastest growth it’s not even a surprise for me.
And I am sure that the loss of blood/iron plays a role in how we absorb other nutrients. And I believe the heme iron is that regulator.
By the way, my daughter had another viral attack, sore throat, stuffy nose and the general cold symptoms but I gave her additional vitamins (in pills) and two days later no sign of cold. Gone.
I don’t know if it was a cold virus or Epstein Barr or something else but at the first sign of the “viral” attack the extra vitamins worked their magic and my daughter was fine again. I’ve done this before a couple of months ago and it worked the same. Two days and symptoms went away. I think that during this kind of viral infection your body uses up the minerals inside you and it’s important to quickly deliver more of them or the body will crush. It will leave you unprotected and another attack may happen. This also tells me that the vitamins in pills work.

[jimmylegs]

I use antiviral foods and supplements all the time, to great effect. my own amounts of vit A, C, E8, Se and Zn. Magnesium helps too.

[Celeste485]

Jimbo, you are going to love me!
I’ve been talking about runners, body builders and people with scoliosis and now I made a connection not only between these people but also to my daughter.
You know what all of them have in common? It is all about oxygen!!! Their need for oxygen is greater than their body provides.
After reading about oxygen in scoliosis this is what I found:
“Dunwoodie's group then went on to test the genetic risk factor in a mouse model combined with an environmental insult in the form of hypoxia. Surprisingly, they found a marked increase in spinal abnormalities in the offspring, when the mothers were exposed to only 8 hours of low oxygen during an entire 21‐day pregnancy.

"We found that the combination of the genetic risk as well as exposure to low oxygen, resulted in our subjects being up to 10 times more likely to develop congenital scoliosis, than those that only had the genetic risk factor," says Dunwoodie.

"What this brief period of low oxygen essentially did was disrupt the pathway responsible for development of the spine, and we know that the same pathway is used in the development of limbs and many organs, including the heart, kidneys, brain and cranio‐facial region," adds Dunwoodie.

Bob Graham, a professor and executive director of the cardiac research institute, says around 25 percent of patients with congenital scoliosis also have some form of congenital heart defect, indicating that a single environmental 'insult' such as hypoxia, can potentially affect the development of more than one organ in the body.

http://www.scoliosis-support.org/showthread.php?t=14665

Then here is about hypoxia:

“Some of the compensatory mechanisms adopted by the body include an increases in heart rate, myocardial contractility and cardiac output.
As the heart pumps more blood to increase the output of circulating oxygenated blood, there may be a decrease in the amount of blood supplied to the peripheral tissues, leading to a bluish discoloration or cyanosis in these areas.
This conserves oxygenated blood for the more vital organs such as the brain and the heart.”

http://www.news-medical.net/health/What-is-Hypoxia.aspx

I have mentioned that my daughter was experiencing problems at higher altitudes then the optic neuritis after swimming under water. And nobody believed me! Now we know that my daughter was suffering from this for a very long time. It is hypoxia that caused my daughter’s optic neuritis and brain lesions. It is hypoxia that caused her problems when we were travelling on higher elevations. Cold sores/cracking on her mouth right before she was diagnosed with anemia were definitely caused by hypoxia. When her brain needed more oxygen it took it from her mouth. Even though her mouth are healed completely now there are days when they turn darker color. I’ve been already trying to figure it out what could cause this, now I know that it happens on the day after she runs a mile in school. More oxygen has been used for the run so the lips were showing the need for more oxygen. Holy Fazoli.
Ladies and gentlemen, meet your enemy, it is hypoxia, as oxygen disruption and heme iron can help here a lot. The disruption in oxygen delivery causes your illness.

And below is the proof I am a genius.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/msi/2013/598093/