all things vitamin D

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here
Andrey
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by Andrey » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:44 pm

Is there any news on the calcitriol+d3 treatment?

I wonder if anyone tried this "in real life". The first news was quite a while ago and there must be at least someone who tried it...

Instead of steroids at the onset (or together?) would be very interesting.

Or maybe this just did not show any use in humans despite results with mice...

What about trials? If anyone knows some info, would be very interesting to see.

Andrey

User avatar
Squeakycat
Family Elder
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:00 pm
Location: Yehud, Israel

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by Squeakycat » Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:24 pm

Andrey wrote:Is there any news on the calcitriol+d3 treatment?

I wonder if anyone tried this "in real life". The first news was quite a while ago and there must be at least someone who tried it...

Instead of steroids at the onset (or together?) would be very interesting.

Or maybe this just did not show any use in humans despite results with mice...

What about trials? If anyone knows some info, would be very interesting to see.

Andrey
Plugging away at this. Four people that I know of have been doing empirical testing of the protocol. Here is a recent statement on the efficacy from one of the people who has tried it:
Pre-trial test wrote:The calcitriol absolutely works. And it most definitely should be used by neurologists to treat any MS attack. My personal experience was that for approximately six weeks after taking the calcitriol I had complete elimination of muscle spasticity and complete elimination of clonus. This followed the initial the fact which, to me, was akin to the "steroid high" I experienced from a course of IV Solu-Medrol. The quality of the experience, initially, was different from the anti-inflammatory effect of the steroids, as everything not only felt better, but everything actually worked better. My core control and balance improved dramatically, and my usual "bent-over" posture disappeared. Many many friends spontaneously commented on how much better I was walking. Over the past two weeks to clonus and spasticity are returning. The only side effect I experienced at 37.5 µg was a day of diarrhea.
Everyone who has tried this so far is male and all have progressive MS.

The problem with this testing is that we don't have a way to see if a dose is having the same effect in pwMS as was seen in mice. In the proper clinical trial, there will be several direct measures of that to determine a dose that is both safe and effective.

Professor Hayes has been swamped with teaching duties and unable to devote time to getting a clinical trial underway, but expects to be able to do this as soon as the semester ends.

What can be said so far is that there is clinically obvious effect above a certain dose in males with progressive MS. One person who is RRMS is waiting for a relapse to test the effect at that time in lieu of doing a course of Solu-Medrol.

Another thing that is standing out is that unlike what happens in mice where a single dose of calcitriol followed by daily dosing of Vit D3 was effective, it appears that the dose of calcitriol may have to be repeated periodically at least in male progressives. Since we don't actually know whether the dose level is adequate, this has to be taken for what it is, an observation based on a very small number of tests which are little more than stabbing in the dark to determine a dose.

User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 12028
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by jimmylegs » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:33 am

fyi re a familiar cofactor. blame anon for this ;D

fwiw, here are three of the first four google scholar results for a seach on zinc calcitriol:

Zinc modulates mononuclear cellular calcitriol metabolism in peritoneal dialysis patients
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8731107
the effect of zinc on mononuclear cellular cytokine and calcitriol production is mediated through different pathways.

Zinc nutritional status modulates the response of 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol to calcium depletion in rats
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/16194 ... 1Mz4nwo.22
1,25(OH)2D increased in both groups, but was higher in the zinc-replete than the zinc-depleted group at the end of the experiment. ... We conclude zinc depletion diminishes the response of 1,25(OH)2D to calcium depletion in rats.

Zinc nutritional status modulates the 1,25-(OH)2D. Response in uremic rats
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/1819762
There was a significant effect of renal function, zinc nutritional status, and the interaction of these factors in accounting for differences in mean 1,25-(OH)2D levels.

not to mention:

Possible alterations of the in vivo 1,25(OH)2D3 synthesis and its tissue distribution in magnesium-deficient rats.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/7669505
We found that magnesium deficiency produced a decrease of both the in vivo synthesis of 3H-1,25(OH)2D3 and the binding of the radioactive hormone to bone tissue.

Hypomagnesemia and the parathyroid hormone-vitamin D endocrine system in children with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus: Effects of magnesium administration
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 760580486X
All patients were given magnesium orally (6 mg/kg daily of elemental magnesium) for up to 60 days. During treatment, serum magnesium, total and ionized calcium, intact PTH, calcitriol, and osteocalcin concentrations significantly increased, reaching control values. ... These data suggest that magnesium deficiency plays a pivotal role in altering mineral homeostasis in insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

Anonymoose
Family Elder
Posts: 1155
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:33 am

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by Anonymoose » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:43 am

Hehe. Thanks jimmy. ;)

...and you have to watch competing micronutrients too!!

User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 12028
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by jimmylegs » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:50 am

so true!
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

User avatar
Squeakycat
Family Elder
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:00 pm
Location: Yehud, Israel

Estradiol, testosterone and calcitriol

Post by Squeakycat » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:35 pm

Posting a link to two recently reported studies of estadiol and testosterone, under vitamin D because like calcitriol, the bioactive form of vitamin D, they are secosteroids and they interact. A complete guess, but I suspect that the benefits of both may well be linked to that interaction with calcitriol.

I posted details here.

User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by lyndacarol » Wed May 13, 2015 8:55 am

Lots of vitamin D info in one place:

http://www.cancercenter.com/community/t ... e=OUTBRAIN

kw202
Family Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by kw202 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:31 pm

Here's a question: If I'm dosing vitamin D at 10000 IU a day... what else should I be taking to compensate? I'm also taking about 300mg of magnesium. Should I also be taking K2? How much?

User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by lyndacarol » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:25 pm

kw202 wrote:Here's a question: If I'm dosing vitamin D at 10000 IU a day... what else should I be taking to compensate? I'm also taking about 300mg of magnesium. Should I also be taking K2? How much?
After taking 8000 IU of vitamin D3 daily for about a year and a half, I developed a kidney stone. I suspect there was a connection. I caution you about taking very large daily doses.

In an effort to control where calcium is deposited, I take MK-7 (Vitamin K2 as menaquinone–7) 90 mcg per softgel.

User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by lyndacarol » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:45 am

kw202 wrote:Here's a question: If I'm dosing vitamin D at 10000 IU a day... what else should I be taking to compensate? I'm also taking about 300mg of magnesium. Should I also be taking K2? How much?
From Dr. Mercola's newsletter: "What You Need to Know about Vitamin K2, D and Calcium"
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... in-k2.aspx
If you take oral vitamin D, you also need to take vitamin K2. Vitamin K2 deficiency is actually what produces the symptoms of vitamin D toxicity, which includes inappropriate calcification that can lead to hardening of your arteries
He interviews Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue (15 min):

on her book, Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox.

vilnietis
Family Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 11:18 am

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by vilnietis » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:32 am

lyndacarol,

how do you know that kidney stones are due to vitamin D supplementation? Following your logic people cannot go outside the house during daytime. Everyone knows that people are able to get 10,000IU from sunlight in half an hour. Sunlight will also lead to calcification. Sounds ridiculously, isn't it?
I think your kidney stone adventures are due to other factors and I'm sorry to hear you have this problem.

User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by lyndacarol » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:57 am

vilnietis wrote:lyndacarol,

how do you know that kidney stones are due to vitamin D supplementation? Following your logic people cannot go outside the house during daytime. Everyone knows that people are able to get 10,000IU from sunlight in half an hour. Sunlight will also lead to calcification.
I do not know that my kidney stone was due to my high, long-term vitamin D supplementation. I suspect there was a connection. As most people who connect events occurring at the same time, I ascribed the kidney stone event to the only change I had made, i.e. D3 supplementation.

I was not taking vitamin K2 at the time and there was no monitoring of my urinary calcium excretion. I had not been identified as a "kidney stone former."
Effect of vitamin D repletion on urinary calcium excretion among kidney stone formers
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22422535
CONCLUSIONS:
Among stone formers with vitamin D deficiency, a limited course of vitamin D repletion does not seem to increase mean urinary calcium excretion, although a subset of individuals may have an increase. These data suggest that vitamin D therapy, if indicated, should not be withheld solely on the basis of stone disease, but 24-hour urinary calcium excretion should be monitored after repletion.
I would now encourage anyone taking high doses of vitamin D3 supplements for an extended period of time to have the doctor monitor his/her urinary calcium.

vilnietis
Family Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 11:18 am

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by vilnietis » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:19 pm

First, your vitamin D supplementation was really below normal. Normal I would say is 10,000IU. Well known, confirmed, don't listen to FDA :)
Second, I take 70.000IU for extended period of time and nothing. No signs of any toxicity. I avoid diary and nuts, drink 2.5l per day, do exercise and that is enough to avoid any side effects.

So please re-think your past and go back to vitamin D ASAP. I know many people with a kidney stones, who didn't follow those 4 basic rules, but continues to take now 60,000IU or more without any side effects by following strictly the rules ;)

User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 12028
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by jimmylegs » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:32 am

oh look they're getting there, slowly but surely. i used to have this diminished serologic response to d3. **past tense**

Multiple sclerosis patients have a diminished serologic response to vitamin D supplementation compared to healthy controls
http://msj.sagepub.com/content/22/6/753.short
"For this study 27 MS patients and 30 HCs were enrolled. There was no significant difference in baseline 25(OH)D level or demographics except for higher body mass index (BMI) in the MS group (25.3 vs. 23.6 kg/m2, p=0.035). In total, 24 MS subjects and 29 HCs completed the study. In a multivariate model accounting for BMI, medication adherence, and oral contraceptive use, MS patients had a 16.7 nmol/l (95%CI: 4.2, 29.2, p=0.008) lower increase in 25(OH)D levels compared with HCs.
Conclusions: Patients with MS had a lower increase in 25(OH)D levels with supplementation, even after accounting for putative confounders."
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 12028
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: all things vitamin D

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:28 am

related to last post above:

Magnesium deficit - overlooked cause of low vitamin D status?
http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/ar ... 015-11-229
"Like vitamin D deficit, magnesium deficit is considered to be a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Several steps in the vitamin D metabolism, such as vitamin D binding to its transport protein and the conversion of vitamin D into the hormonal form 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D by hepatic and renal hydroxylation, depend on magnesium as a cofactor. A new analysis of two National Health and Nutrition Examination Surveys data sets, published in BMC Medicine, investigated potential interactions between magnesium intake, circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D, which is the generally accepted indicator of vitamin D status, and mortality. Data indicate a reduced risk of insufficient/deficient vitamin D status at high magnesium intake and an inverse association between circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D and mortality, particularly cardiovascular mortality, among those with magnesium intake above the median. The study provides important findings concerning potential metabolic interactions between magnesium and vitamin D and its clinical relevance. However, results should be considered preliminary since biochemical data on individual magnesium status were lacking, confounding cannot be excluded and questions on the dose?response relationship still remain to be answered."
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post