the rest of the B complex

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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by NHE » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:56 am

jimmylegs wrote:will have to review and compare to klenner's rationale for the various b vits in his 1971 protocol
This is the same Klenner who murdered 6 people and then blew himself up?

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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by jimmylegs » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:18 am

yes, yes it is :roll:
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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by jimmylegs » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:15 am

jimmylegs wrote:aha, full text pdf link
https://researchonline.nd.edu.au/cgi/vi ... th_article

will have to review and compare to klenner's rationale for the various b vits in his 1971 protocol
starting in on the references.

this one was cited a few times in the decade after publication. author doesn't have an inspiring track record overall. old science really makes one appreciate new science ;)

The intraspinal (subarachnoid) injection of vitamin b1 for the relief of intractable pain and for inflammatory and degenerative diseases of the central nervous system: Preliminary report (1938)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1038906786

Abstract

1. One hundred and twenty intraspinal subarachnoid injections of synthetic vitamin B1 in doses of 500 to 50,000 international units, (1 to 100 mg.) were given to twenty-eight patients, after preliminary experiments in cats.

2. The cases treated were: inoperable cancer, 10; von Recklinghausen's disease, 1; multiple sclerosis, 2; degeneration of the pyramidal system of unknown etiology, 1; thromboangiitis obliterans with pregangrenous condition of feet, 1; duodenal ulcer with pulmonary tuberculosis, 1; alcoholic neuritis of the supraorbital nerve, 1, and of the sciatic nerve, 1; cardiac decompensation, uremia, anuria, 1; tabes dorsalis, 1; hypertrophic spondylitis, 2; osteoporosis of spine, 1; Paget's disease, 1; intractable pruritus ani and vulvae, 2; beriberi, 1; and acute poliomyelitis, 1.

3. Natural or synthetic vitamin B1 taken by mouth, rectum, subcutaneously, intramuscularly, or intravenously may not reach the nervous system because of digestion or neutralization by the alkaline intestinal contents, or neutralization by a general alkalosis, or because of barriers in diseased choroid plexuses. Even if vitamin B1 does reach the cerebrospinal fluid, its action may be neutralized by the alkalinity of this fluid, which may be quite high as is so often found in cases of cancer and chronic illnesses.

4. Given intraspinally, the beneficial effects appear much quicker than when given by other routes, because the vitamin remains in the cerebrospinal fluid for several days after a direct intraspinal injection.

5. After intraspinal injection of vitamin B1, improvement in varying degrees was noted in all cases. All felt better and looked better; appetites were increased, pain was lessened or abolished completely, muscular control improved, speech and gait improved, joints became looser, libido was increased, diplopia corrected. Some of the patients felt rejuvenated.

6. The case of von Recklinghausen's disease (multiple neurofibromatosis) responded most favorably. Besides marked general improvement, some nodules became softer and smaller, and some have disappeared. The specific response to vitamin B1 therapy suggests that the disease in this patient was due to a long-continued lack of vitamin B1, together with an excessive amount of sweets in the diet. The possible relation of a chronic deficiency of vitamin B1 to the cause of certain types of cancer is suggested.

7. Many chronic or incurable conditions of the central and peripheral nervous systems may respond favorably to the intraspinal subarachnoid injection of synthetic vitamin B1. It should prove of particular value in cases of multiple sclerosis, encephalitis, syphilis, and poliomyelitis. It should be tried in cancer cases, and whenever symptoms or signs of obscure origin fail to respond to usual methods of treatment.

8 Treatment should start with ten milligrams, and be increased every fourth to seventh day, or more frequently in urgent cases. Injections should be given intraspinally in the lumbar region and thoroughly barbitaged with the spinal fluid. Doses over 20 mg. may cause slight elevation of temperature, weakness, stiffness of muscles and fingers, loss of appetite, buzzing or blowing in ears, and conjunctivitis lasting from several hours to several days. This is usually followed by signs of improvement. The maximum single safe dose intraspinally appears to be 100 mg.

9. No patient developed any paralysis, anesthesia, or signs of meningitis following the intraspinal (subarachnoid) injection of vitamin B1. Spinal fluid cell counts were not appreciably increased. The hydrogen ion reading of the spinal fluid was usually reduced. In all cases with a ph above 8.5, treatment should be pushed, but it is inadvisable to reduce the ph below 7.0, since restlessness and nervousness may ensue. Uncontrolled intraspinal administration may cause “vitamin B1 poisoning,” which as demonstrated experimentally, may prove fatal.

10. It is possible that synthetic vitamin B1, when mixed with the cerebrospinal fluid, may leave the subarachnoid space via the perineural spaces of the cranial and spinal nerves. Preliminary observations point to a possible beneficial action of vitamin B1 on diseased spinal cords and nerves when administered by injection into the subarachnoid space.

11. Introduced into the subarachnoid space, synthetic vitamin B1 stimulates the sympathetic nervous system.

12. Synthetic vitamin B1 is a remarkable specific oxidative and catalytic drug of great benefit to injured, diseased, or avitaminotic nerve tissue.

13. Synthetic vitamin B1 intraspinally has a powerful rejuvenating action unknown to any other drug, and is one of the most valuable therapeutic agents at our command.
take control of your own health
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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by jimmylegs » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:20 am

http://www.townsendletter.com/Klenner/klenner7.htm

item 2 i can't find in any format other than citation:

Rosenberg, L.E.: Vitamin Deficiency Diseases and the Vitamin Dependent Diseases with Reference to B and D., National Health Federation Bulletin Vol XVIII

item 3 - another klenner protocol reference (old science again amusing):

TREATMENT OF MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS WITH NICOTINIC ACID AND VITAMIN B1 - PRELIMINARY REPORT (1940)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamain ... act/545332

"SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS
Five cases of advanced multiple sclerosis in which many forms of treatment had been used without appreciably halting the progress of the disease and in which the patients were treated with nicotinic acid and vitamin B± are reported. Nicotinic acid produces vasodilatation not only of the skin but also of the brain and spinal cord. Nicotinic acid and vitamin B1 (thiamin chloride) may be given parenterally in considerable doses (nicotinic acid, 120 mg. ; thiamin chloride, 33.2 mg.) for prolonged periods without apparent harmful effects. Subjective and objective evidence of continued improvement has followed the parenteral use of nicotinic acid and vitamin B1 in the cases of multiple sclerosis here reported.

DISCUSSION
Dr. J. C. Yaskin : Several thoughts occur in connection with a presentation of this sort. First, there are two diseases treatment of which is notoriously difficult to evaluate—Parkinson's disease and multiple sclerosis. Second, one knows that multiple sclerosis does have remissions, even when well advanced. Third, a great many patients with multiple sclerosis are easily influenced by suggestion ; especially is this true of Dr. Moore's second patient, whom, I believe, I saw in the Orthopaedic Hospital. Fourth, some have been using vitamin Bi in treatment of multiple sclerosis. As a matter of fact, the routine is, when possible, to give fever therapy with the hope that the disease is of virus origin and that some of the organisms may be killed. After this, quinine, liver, liver extract and wine are given when the patients can afford these agents, and I can assure Dr. Moore that a number of patients have shown considerable improvement when they have taken vitamin Bi and liver. Last, although Dr. Moore had 1 patient under his observation only a few months, it is a year from the time of beginning the treatment. Although it is difficult to evaluate results, all in all, any one who can suggest something useful in the treatment of multiple sclerosis deserves a great deal of credit.

Dr. Michael Scott : I was much interested in Dr. Moore's experimental work with nicotinic acid. It was given to 1 patient at Temple University Hospital while on the operating table, and the exposed brain was observed. I did not see any change; however, that was in only 1 case, and only part of the temporal lobe was exposed.

Dr. A. SiLVERSTEiN : Dr. Moore's second patient, I think, went the rounds of every neurologist in Philadelphia. I saw him years ago; he had early signs of multiple sclerosis, but there was such a marked psychogenic overlay that the question of hysteria was considered. He was highly suggestible, and still is. He is now at the Philadelphia Home for Incurables, and is absolutely disabled. If one asks him how he is getting along, he says : "I feel fine, as long as I get that injection in me." On the day on which he does not receive an injection he feels sick. I have never seen the man stand. He still has severe spasticity; it all depends on what one means by making a person better. As far as he is concerned, he is disabled. Aside from the upper extremities, he is a cripple. I have seen 4 patients who have objected rather strenuously to this treatment.

Dr. A. Ornsteen : Does Dr. Moore think that the response is due entirely to vasodilatation, to the exclusion of the replacement therapy of avitaminoses?

Dr. Matthew T. Moore : I realize fully that in bringing forth any new form of therapy of multiple sclerosis I am embarking on a stormy sea. However, any method or procedure that promises the slightest step forward in treatment of this particularly distressing disease will be of value.
As regards remissions in multiple sclerosis : Many patients do show remissions, but the recent article by Brown and Putnam (Remissions in Multiple Sclerosis, Arch. Nettrol. & Psychiat. 41:913 [May] 1939) showed clearly, I believe, the statistical evidence regarding remissions and the type of cases in which the remissions occur. They stated that in cases in which the lesions are small, producing such symptoms as diplopia, the probability of remissions is greater and the duration of the remission longer ; in cases in which the lesions are large, producing paraplegias and advanced pathologic reflexes, the hope of remission is slight. The part played by suggestion I have, of course, taken into consideration. Any patient with a distressing disease, such as multiple sclerosis, in which the outlook is hopeless is always amenable to wishful thinking, to any
hope that can be held out to him, and therefore is highly suggestible. As I indicated by the lantern slide illustrations, nicotinic acid was used because I believe that if hyperemia similar to that in the skin could be brought about in the nervous system one could dispense with fever therapy and its deleterious effects on nerve tissue. Bennett, Hartman and others have shown that definite pathologic changes may occur in the brain and spinal cord as the result of fever therapy.
The statement that multiple sclerosis may be of virus origin is open to serious question. Pathologically, it is a degenerative disease from the start. As regards the end results in this series : I have been using this therapy for a year and three months in 2 cases and for a year in the remaining 3 cases ; in the first 2 cases the improvement has been encouraging, despite the advanced stage of the disease in both.

In reply to Dr. Scott regarding the appearance of the brain after the injection of nicotinic acid : The "pinking" of the cerebral cortex is more or less determined by the dose of nicotinic acid. In man, unless 60 mg. of nicotinic acid is given as a minimum dose, there may not be any appreciable response.
None of the patients noted a favorable response in less than a week. The spasticity never decreased immediately. The diminution in spasticity was of a subjective character first. There was diminution in spasticity that could be observed objectively later; that this was not due to suggestion was simply shown in case 1 and in case 5, which I did not describe, that of a man who was absolutely bedridden and had not been able to move his body or lower limbs for six months. In two weeks he was able to move his toes, and in three months to undress himself.

As regards the mental reaction of the second patient, mentioned by Dr. Silverstein, it is true he was suggestible. This man had the most advanced multiple sclerosis I have seen, with pronounced spasticity—so extreme that I was afraid he had a tumor of the cord extending upward into the foramen magnum : however, careful studies eliminated this possibility. This patient was admitted with extreme spasticity and crossing of the legs. He can now uncross his legs voluntarily and is able to move in bed, which he formerly could not do.

As to Dr. Ornsteen's question regarding vasodilatation versus replacement therapy: I have used nicotinic acid on the basis of the effects of vasodilatation, increased oxidation and improved nutrition, which appear concomitantly with increased blood flow in the nervous system. As far as the replacement therapy is concerned, one knows that vitamin Bi unquestionably plays a role in the degenerative neuropathies ; for that reason, the two drugs were used simultaneously to obtain a complementary effect."
take control of your own health
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ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:47 am

re references in http://www.townsendletter.com/Klenner/klenner7.htm

item 4
Bijou, S.W.; Baer, I.M.: Child Development II Universal Stage of Infancy. Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1965.

can't be found other than citation via scholar, no regular google search items work simply for PDF access either. i call BS.

item 5
Kempe, C.H.: Key to the Secret of MS. Medical World News, July 7, 1972

one non peer-reviewed hit in scholar, and via google all citations no substance. more BS.

item 6
Alter, M. et al.: "Dissertation on Environmental and Sleeping Virus Theory" Medical Tribune

can't access original text, more of the same BS

item 7
Schandl, D.K.: Dissertation on Environmental and Pyridoxine Cause of MS. The Charlotte Observer, Charlotte, NC. April 23, 1973

can't access original text, more BS from same cluster of sources on both scholar (improper use of scholar indexing) and regular google

(i had hoped to find at least a few decent articles in here... persevering but will skip items not published in a peer reviewed journal...)

item 10
Zimmerman, H.H.; Burack, F: Lesions of the Nervous System Resulting from a Deficiency of the Vitamin B Complex. Arch. Pathology, Vol. 13:207, February 1932.

Lesions of the nervous system resulting from deficiency of the vitamin B complex. (1932)
https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abs ... 9311402440

"These authors obtained symptoms from deficiency of B vitamins similar to those obtained by Gildea, Kattwinkel and Castle, but their histological findings and conclusions contrast sharply with those mentioned above. Five dogs kept on Cowgill's diet (deficient in the vitamin B complex though not entirely devoid of vitamin B2) supplemented by cod-liver oil, showed myelin degeneration most marked in the sciatic and least in the vagus nerves; this was proportional to the duration of symptoms and was unaccompanied by definite axonal change. In the cord only occasional nerve cells showed swelling and chromatolysis. They regard the focal '' demyelination " reported by Gildea et al. as an artefact due to the staining method employed. In three dogs deprived completely of vitamins B2 and B1 there were in addition large zones of degeneration and vascular proliferation in the cerebellum and substantia gelatinosa of pons and medulla; in one, tract degeneration was present in the fasciculus gracilis. Two animals starved completely save for a daily ration of the vitamin B complex presented as "vitavose " showed similar nerve lesions. The authors consider the possibility that in this case early death interferes with the onset of paralysis, which is really due to inanition."

better, but kind of surprised this was the most up to date info available for a protocol developed in the 1970s...

item 11
Spies, T.D.; Cooper, C.; Blankenhorn, M.A.: The Use of Nicotinic Acid in the Treatment of Pellagra. JAMA, Vol. 110:622, February, 1936

fancy, my library is even subscribed to this one.

THE USE OF NICOTINIC ACID IN THE TREATMENT OF PELLAGRA (1938)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/a ... act/280223

"Abstract
It is now commonly believed1 that pellagra in human beings and blacktongue in dogs are either analogous or closely related diseases. All food substances which have been curative and preventive for one have been for the other also. The observations of Elvehjem, Madden, Strong and Wooley2 regarding the cure of canine blacktongue by the use of nicotinic acid suggested that this substance might be useful in the treatment of human pellagra. Since we could find no reports on the effect of nicotinic acid on human beings, a preliminary study was made to determine a safe range of dosage. Thirteen persons, three members of the staff and ten nonpellagrous patients, were given an aqueous solution of nicotinic acid (Eastman) orally each day. The dose varied in amount and was usually begun at a few milligrams daily and in some instances was increased until 200 mg. was being given daily."

brings to mind recent posts on magnesium vs B3/B1 interactions wrt spasticity.

that's all for now - will revisit remaining references another time.
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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by NHE » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:58 pm

jimmylegs wrote:re references in http://www.townsendletter.com/Klenner/klenner7.htm

item 4
Bijou, S.W.; Baer, I.M.: Child Development II Universal Stage of Infancy. Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1965.

can't be found other than citation via scholar, no regular google search items work simply for PDF access either. i call BS.
https://www.amazon.com/Child-Developmen ... B000MBBX80


Image


I think the reference is incorrect. It looks like it should be Baer, DM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_M._Baer

The other author... https://www.google.com/search?ei=2qNvW8 ... dCkOm_ULNI

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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by jimmylegs » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:21 am

i generally assume amazon links imply a fee for access, am i wrong?
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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by NHE » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:20 pm

jimmylegs wrote:i generally assume amazon links imply a fee for access, am i wrong?
That seller on Amazon is charging USD $67 + $4 shipping + tax for the journal. The point was, the reference does exist. I haven't checked any of the other references, nor is it likely that I will, but maybe they're not BS. Older references are just harder to find.

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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by NHE » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:12 pm

jimmylegs wrote:i generally assume amazon links imply a fee for access, am i wrong?
You might be able to get some of the references through your library's interlibrary loan program.

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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:27 am

possibly, but i doubt it. when i link google scholar to my library system, the results show me if i have any kind of access. the university's subscription choices are based on relevance and quality among other things (i don't have the details).
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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by NHE » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:40 pm

jimmylegs wrote:possibly, but i doubt it. when i link google scholar to my library system, the results show me if i have any kind of access. the university's subscription choices are based on relevance and quality among other things (i don't have the details).
Yes, and interlibrary loan is for items your university doesn't subscribe to. It works the same way when I was at university for my BS and MS and also with my current public library system.

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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:44 pm

i've used it occasionally in the past (the one case that comes to mind ended up being unnecessary too - there ended up being a resource copy in one of the labs). in this particular instance i can't see a worthwhile return on the time investment - esp if there ends up being a fee involved :S
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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by NHE » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:50 pm

jimmylegs wrote:i've used it occasionally in the past. in this particular instance i can't see a worthwhile return on the time investment - esp if there ends up being a fee involved :S
Neither of the two Universities I went to charged for interlibrary loan materials unless I requested expedited service.

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Re: the rest of the B complex

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:54 pm

yeah i didn't have to pay the one time but the library does caution re possible fees. it's not a paper anyway right. luckily there's way better material available in this millennium.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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