FMT Substitute?

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:31 am

So I've tried a couple of rounds of David Perlmutter's 90 billion CFU probiotic. I took one capsule/day for the 30 day regimen. The effects were negligible. It occurred to me that even though this is a fairly high CFU count probiotic, that it is likely akin to the proverbial spit in a hurricane when compared to a fecal microbiota transplant (FMT). Has anyone pondered, or even tried perhaps, a much higher dose, e.g., splitting the bottle into 3 doses for 0.9 trillion CFUs/day or taking the entire bottle at once for 2.7 trillion CFUs? The higher dose might be better able to shift a stubborn gut microbiome. Thoughts and comments are welcome.

User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:45 am

Well, even at 2.7 trillion CFUs, it's still a small drop in a very large bucket.
[color=blue]Mazmanian et al.[/color] wrote:By young adulthood, humans and other mammals are host to ~1012 viable bacteria per gram of colonic content, consisting of 500–1000 microbial species and outnumbering host cells by 100-fold.

User avatar
cervocuit
Family Elder
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:00 pm
Location: France

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by cervocuit » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:48 am

There is a probiotic called VSL#3 which has 450 billion bacteria. It has already been tested in EAE and MS with several sachets a day (total 3600 billion CFU/day)

http://n.neurology.org/content/86/16_Supplement/P5.320
Conclusions: Our findings demonstrate that VSL#3 induces an anti-inflammatory immune cell profile that ameliorates EAE and may be applicable as a treatment for MS.
So it changes the immune profile in the good way but I doubt that there is any short term effect in humans.

For some reason, we can find it in France by the name of Vivomixx. I have tried It, and it tastes like salty concentrated yoghourt. Not surprising, when you know that one tablespoon of kefir contains 150 billions CFU.

But it’s expensive, I prefer water kefir and raw sauerkraut.

User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:59 am

From: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

http://ushealthmagz.com/2018/04/16/gut- ... sclerosis/
Alternatively, probiotics that preferentially nourish bacteria that compete with the MS-causing kinds might keep the latter in check, Baranzini said, though he cautioned that probiotics have not yet been shown to cause the wholesale microbiome changes that might be needed to prevent or cure disease.

ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by ElliotB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:52 am

There are many foods/beverages that are high in probiotics. Included are fermented foods such as Sauerkraut and pickles (do not confuse fermented pickles with pickles processes with vinegar) and and drinks such as Kefir ( available in both milk and water based) and Kombucha. Fermented foods and beverages are loaded with probiotics that blow away even the highest volume capsules. (BEWARE - commercial/store bought fermented products, especially the drinks, will be loaded up with sugar. Yogurt too!)


"That is not a misprint, 10 billion colony forming units per milliliter is equal to 10 billion CFU per 0.03381 ounces. Since there are roughly 5 milliliters in one measured teaspoon that makes 50 billion colony forming units per teaspoon, 150 billion colony forming units per tablespoon. "

The above statement is from this article:

Surprising Probiotic Count Of Kefir Revealed
https://www.nourishingplot.com/2015/10/ ... -of-kefir/

An 8oz glass of Kefir would have many, many TRILLIONS! (An 8oz cup has 48 teaspoons,)

User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 am

ElliotB wrote:Surprising Probiotic Count Of Kefir Revealed
https://www.nourishingplot.com/2015/10/ ... -of-kefir/
From the above article...
Results indicated that kefir use increased polarization of the immune response towards TH1 type and decreased TH2 type response and accordingly allergic response.
Increased TH1 is known to make MS worse.

ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by ElliotB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:05 am

You left out the end of the paragraph which states "The decrease in IL-8 level due to kefir use, might control the inflammatory response by suppressing neutrophil chemotaxis and activation.”


Whatever that means....



"Increased TH1 is known to make MS worse."

I have consumed over 60 ounces of kefir a day for about 4 years and also consume other fermented foods, without any negative effects.

User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:56 am

ElliotB wrote:I have consumed over 60 ounces of kefir a day for about 4 years and also consume other fermented foods, without any negative effects.
Thank you. That's good to know.

User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:06 am

ElliotB wrote:BEWARE - commercial/store bought fermented products, especially the drinks, will be loaded up with sugar. Yogurt too!


I forgot to mention this earlier, try Nancy's yogurt. Their plain yogurt has no added sugar and ~50 billion CFUs/cup. They make a kefir too.

https://nancysyogurt.com/

ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by ElliotB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:36 am

"no added sugar" does not mean no sugar, they use fruit to sweeten their yogurt - fruit is loaded with sugar (and other unwanted invisible/hidden 'stuff').

Also you don't know what kind of milk they are using to make their products.


Organic Valley has a small line of products made from milk from grass fed cows including milk, cheese and yogurt.

Their plain yogurt has no sugar added (of any kind). I have tried it and it tastes great! Their products seem to be available at large supermarkets including Walmart.

User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:06 pm

ElliotB wrote:"no added sugar" does not mean no sugar, they use fruit to sweeten their yogurt - fruit is loaded with sugar (and other unwanted invisible/hidden 'stuff').
The Nancy's plain yogurt has no fruit in it.

ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by ElliotB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:15 pm

but is does have Honey (there is probably not a lot, as there are only 17 grams of sugar per serving. the Organic Valley plain Yogurt has 11 grams. Neither is high in sugar, especially compared to 'sweetened' yogurt products which would have a lot more. Also, there is less of a difference than the direct comparison of sugar in grams from the labels as the serving size of the two is not the same.

Both Yogurt and Kefir are easy to make at home, relatively inexpensive compared to store bought products and doing so also gives you full control over the ingredients.

Kefir can be made with milk or water (totally non-dairy) and is loaded with probiotics, likely significantly more than anything you would buy in a supermarket.

But getting back to the original discussion of probiotics, Nancy's 50 billion CFUs/cup is not a lot of probiotics. Also, the probiotic strains are important as well as some are more beneficial than others.

User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:10 pm

ElliotB wrote:but is does have Honey (there is probably not a lot, as there are only 17 grams of sugar per serving. the Organic Valley plain Yogurt has 11 grams. Neither is high in sugar, especially compared to 'sweetened' yogurt products which would have a lot more. Also, there is less of a difference than the direct comparison of sugar in grams from the labels as the serving size of the two is not the same.
They make several varieties of yogurt. The PLAIN yogurt does not have added sweeteners.
    • Nutrition Information
      Lowfat Yogurt Plain

      Ingredients: Pasteurized Milk, Nonfat Dry Milk, LIVE PROBIOTIC CULTURES: Bifidobacterium lactis BB-12®, L.acidophilus LA-5®, L.casei, L.rhamnosus LB3, LIVE YOGURT CULTURES: S.thermophilus, L.bulgaricus

ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by ElliotB » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:06 am

The item I was looking at was labeled as Natural Yogurt but was actually their Honey Yogurt product - probably just a simple error on their website. In any case, the sugar content is minimally different from their true plain yogurt and all these yogurts have minimal sugar content which is good to know. I bet that honey yogurt tastes delicious! I may try adding a bit of honey to the milk kefir I make...

User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 5045
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: FMT Substitute?

Post by NHE » Tue May 08, 2018 1:38 am

Is it possible to culture probiotics to increase their numbers sort of like proofing yeast? For example, could one take a probiotic capsule, put the contents in some warm water with some amino acids (say from protein powder) and a little sugar and reasonably expect their numbers to increase?

Post Reply