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Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:21 pm
by Tristan
Hello thisisms,
This is my first time posting. I have questions specifically about antibiotics below, but there is a long background in between if anyone wants to read it!

Two years ago I developed demyelination after a combined hep A/hep B vaccination.

My symptoms are quite atypical of MS - They all occurred initially within a couple of weeks after my vaccinations, and have been abating and recurring intermittently ever since.
Head problems: Pressure in head; dizziness; headache on valsalva manouver.
Respiratory system problems: very irregular heartbeat (sometimes bradycardia, sometimes tachycardia). Chest paralysis to the point it is very difficult to breathe.
Abdominal/gastro-intestinal problems: Frequent acid reflux. Abdominal pain with unidentified cause.
MS-like symptoms: numbness in all limbs. Tingling all over in hot weather. Muscle weakness, and chest cramps.

(This is not as bad as it sounds, most of these symptoms are quite mild now after the initial acute stage.)

Many of these symptoms are not MS symptoms, e.g. the respiratory stuff. I found an Arnold Chiari Malformation (ACM) on my MRI, so I believe this is causing at least some of the symptoms. It was absent from the next MRI, so must be caused by something, rather than congenital, thankfully.

Anyway, why am I posting on the MS forums then? My only 'official' symptom, as far as can be measured by doctors, is demyelination. I have had at least two separate attacks, my second this January, so while I would like to have ADEM, it seems unlikely. Oglioconal bands negative as of last january, and I had an awful csf leak after the test, so I'd rather not have another...! As ACM is not caused directly by vaccinations I believe, it must be a secondary effect from some process like vaccination->inflammation->hernia/csf leak/??-> ACM. So I must first treat the inflammation and hopefully the ACM will resolve itself.

As my problems are very well correlated with my vaccinations (3 vaccinations, attacks occurring consistently 2-3 days after each one.), I would rather believe that the autoimmune process (if there is one), was triggered by some infection. So I have started on the antibiotics protocol to try and help!


1,5 years ago: had 2 week course of Minocycline 200mg, after I showed my doctor 'the' minocycline paper. This was encouraging, as for the first week of mino I had awful aching in my left arm, the injection site. The exact same feeling that happens a day or two after vaccinations. Unfortunately I could not convince him to let me carry on with the course.

3 weeks ago: started doxy, 100mg. Intending to follow Dr. Wheldon's protocol. I initially felt almost no effect for a week or so. However sometime in the second week, I had something a bit like an attack, and my nose started running (for the first time almost since my problems have started). Following that I started sneezing, and have had constant feeling of mucus trickling down my throat (although no more nose running :( ), so I am hoping this is my version of flu-like symptoms, for someone who almost never has flu-like symptoms anymore. My head has also been feeling significantly clearer after this, and valsalva manouver is not causing nearly as much head pressure.


In the last week or so, my liver has started aching. Just dull ache, not very much actual pain. I am very worried, as I have never had this before, and definitely do not want to be killing my liver. Dr. Wheldon's treatment guide says that killing off bacteria can cause hepatic problems, but I wondered if anyone else has experienced this? Is it safe to continue my treatment even in this condition? I had my enzymes checked this morning, and they were normal, but something definitely does not feel right. If 100mg Doxy is damaging my liver, then I don't think I will have any left after a flagyl pulse...

The only other things I was taking were 10,000IU vit. D, 1000mg mag. oxide. I have ordered NAC, lipoic acid and B12 and will start them when they arrive.

As liver did not seem to be improving at all, today I have dropped my doxy dose to 50mg, cut vit. D to 3000IU (I don't want to drop further as reducing my vitamin D dose seems to have the same sort of effect on me as reducing my prednisone dose), and added 1000mg vit. C (I did not have this before as it always makes me feel awful).

If anyone has had similar problems, I would very much appreciate your experiences and advice. After writing this it does sound like I am worrying about nothing, but I am worrying nonetheless and would like to fix this and continue my treatment :)

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:43 pm
by SarahLonglands
Tristan, flu like syptoms are a test for chlamydophila pneumoniae if you are taking n acetyl cysteine preferably before starting antibiotics. Dropping your doxy dose to 50mg a day is not enough to treat anything, or do you mean 50mg twice a day?


Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:05 pm
by Tristan
My intent was to drop my dose and then see if my liver would improve, and then return to an appropriate dosage after it hopefully got better. Do you think it would be better to stay at full dose and not worry about my liver? Or to stop dose completely for now?
Thank you,

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:51 am
by SarahLonglands
Subclinical doses of anything can lead to resistance developing. If you are worried about your liver you should have it tested by your family physician.


Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:19 am
by MacKintosh
Also, taking NAC - N Acetyl Cysteine - which is part of Dr. WHeldon's protocol, should help protect your liver and assist it in processing the junk out of your system.

Yes, you are going to feel pain/difficulty in a lot of areas you didn't feel it in before. Anywhere a cpn colony is lodged is going to have problems while the abx do their thing and battle it out with the disease. Much of this is due to inflammation, so you'll need to take lots of antioxidants and maybe an anti-inflammatory (my dr told me to take Aleve).

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:35 pm
by NHE
MacKintosh wrote:Also, taking NAC - N Acetyl Cysteine - which is part of Dr. WHeldon's protocol, should help protect your liver and assist it in processing the junk out of your system.
Do you know if taking r-lipoic acid, which is also a thiol containing antioxidant, will be of benefit to the liver like glutathione?

Thanks, NHE

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:25 pm
by Tristan
Hi MSers,
I thought I should write a more positive follow-up to this, after having been on anti-biotics for 2 years or so. TL:DR - I am now 95% recovered from all my symptoms, THANK YOU Dr. Wheldon and other antibiotic protocol pioneers.

So I will try to write an approximate time-line, as best as I remember it, of everything I experienced while on this protocol. I think I'm pretty terrible at writing, so sorry if it's hard to read.

April 2012: Started abx, on 100mg, took ~2-3 weeks before my first reaction happened, which you can read my panic-y description of in the last post. For a few months after this, I felt distinctly enlarged liver and spleen (below right and left ribcages respectively), and lots of back pain where I imagine my kidneys are. I also feel almost a constant stream of mucus clinging onto my tonsils and dripping down my throat, which is almost constant to today, although it is less pronounced now. The other main symptom I around this time was my head...not so much headaches, but I would feel that my brain was swelling up, trying to escape my skull, or my eyes were swelling, as if they would pop out. I don't know how much danger was of any of this actually happening, but it wasn't much fun anyway.

~June 2012: Started adding azithromycin, 250mg/every few days. This similarly gave pretty horrible reactions, the worst of which were actually in the day after taking it. I started on 1-2 ~250mg pills a week, and once I stopped feeling like I was going to die every time I took one I increased dose to 3-4 per week. Around this time I started getting heart symptoms too...I guess this isn't typical MS, but it was part of my initial set of symptoms, so not completely unexpected. Some days my heart beat would become so weak I couldn't feel a pulse, and other days it would be in the 120-150 range for hours on end. I spent many nights just hanging around in restaurants near hospitals at this point, scared to be on my own in case something went wrong.

~July 2012: I decided it was too dangerous to live on my own through this, and flew back to stay with my parents for a few months. The flight back was terrible...they always seem to greatly exacerbate my symptoms. I had a new symptom appear in the flight, that was never part of my initial presentation - paralysis. My arms, legs, and chest tensed up to the point I could not move them, or talk, for around 30 minutes. But there were some interesting movies on to keep me occupied, so it wasn't too bad. It was also incredibly hard to move my lungs enough to breathe throughout the whole flight. Anyway after 13 hours of that, I got back on land, and the symptom severity softened a bit.

July 2012 - September 2012: While staying with my parents, I felt safe enough to be more aggressive with my treatment, so increased doxy to 200mg, and azithromycin gradually became 250mg/day. Over these months, my heart symptoms gradually declined, and periods of arrythmia became less pronounced, and less frequent. I started my first flagyl pulse before I came back, and I'm sure everyone here is familiar with how horrible that is. However the "scary" symptoms from the head, lungs and heart did not come back as strongly as they had before, so I felt comfortable to go back and live by myself again. The return flight in september was also bad, but manageable.

Over the following year and a half, various other symptoms have appeared, and then subsided, over the period of a few months: 10cm patch on my left arm became numb; arthritis-like symptoms in basically all joints, hands became difficult to move; leg weakness to the point I couldn't walk up stairs; clenching chest muscles such that I could not stand up without hunching over, and probably some more I have forgotten. Brain fog was initially a problem 24/7, but gradually the severity and duration has been decreasing.

The flagyl I gradually increased to 1200mg / day (every day). 6 months ago I was prescribed moxifloxacin for a different infection, and I felt it was pretty effective at bringing out ms-like symptoms, so I switched doxy out for it in the regular routine. Current regime: 400mg moxi, 250mg azithromycin, 1200mg flagyl / day.

So how has my condition changed due to this treatment?
Head: Brain fog, bad headaches, extreme sensitivity to any movement --- almost entirely gone. Maybe 1 day a week I will have a patch of brain fog for 30 minutes or so in the evenings, but so much improved.
Heart: My heart rate is back to a steady resting rate of 60bpm! Similar to the head, I might get a short period of racing once a week or so, but 95% fixed.
Muscle tension, arthritis type joint pain: all gone
Breathing: Is now as easy as breathing should be!
Remaining issues: in the last few weeks the tips of my toes have become numb. Some leg weakness and joint pain is persistent.

lifestyle improvements:
I can go out and play football now! Before, even small jolts from walking caused bad headaches, and I was too weak to walk for more than 20 minutes or so.
I can concentrate on things without feeling like my head will explode.
I can play trumpet again without feeling like my head will explode.
I can go out in the summer heat and take a shower no problem! Previously any sort of heat would cause tingling all over my body, and of course headaches.
Basically, I am back to a pretty normal ilfe!

Some other random things I want to say:
--Symptoms are always worse at night. As soon as I relax into bed, my body decides it's time to kill some bacteria. Also things often feel bad as soon as I have woken up, but tend to subside in a few minutes.
--Hangovers are directly correlated with symptom severity. Drinking while bacteria are dying is a terrible idea. In the first few months of treatment, hangovers would last for days, and I could barely get out of bed. As things improved, hangovers improved too, and nowadays I can't even tell I was drinking the night before. I wonder if the cause of hangovers in general is in fact a reaction to small amounts of bacteria living in people's bodies.
--I have experienced almost every symptom listed as a "side effect" of these antibiotics, and they have all subsided within a few months. This makes the whole process scary, because you can never know if the abx are the cause, or bacterial die off is the cause. I feel like many antibiotic side effects are actually just bacteria dying in places the patients did not realise they existed.
--I think this procedure is definitely dangerous. I feel like if I had upped my dosage prematurely any of the heart and respiratory difficulties might have got me, or maybe the liver and kidneys could have given up. Please be careful if you are having these sort of symptoms!
--Possibly the worst thing about the treatment, or I guess any experimental treatment, is that it puts the responsibility of your health onto you. I found one doctor who was happy to prescribe to start with, but as soon as I started getting liver problems he did not want to continue. I couldn't find anyone else. So instead, I have been ordering online instead at dubious pharmacies. Any time I would go to the doctors worried about any of my symptoms, the only response I have ever recieved is to stop the antibiotics. No one wants to take responsibility for an experimental treatment, especially if the reactions to it are so severe. It is scary having to make all of your medical decisions for yourself. Luckily it worked out okay for me.

I guess that's my report! Whether this will encourage other people to try this protocol I don't know, but I am incredibly happy that I did. Dr. Wheldon and the abx protocol gave me my life back, thank you so much.

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:22 am
by MacKintosh
I think I'll be smiling all day today, after reading this. CONGRATULATIONS! :-D

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:16 am
by SarahLonglands
Wow, I'll forward this to David straight away!


Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:50 am
by MacKintosh
NHE, I'm sorry, I don't. People on cpn help recommend milk thistle, in addition to NAC, as being liver protective, if that helps...

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:09 pm
by dez2000
Hepatitis is easily cured with vitamin ‘C’
[2005] Lyme Disease -- Wiped Out By Vitamin C One case in particular stands out. A woman suffering with severe and debilitating Lyme disease had been seen by many doctors and had not responded to several courses of antibiotics. Her health was rapidly failing and her husband called Dr. Levy. The woman was immediately infused with 100 grams of Vitamin C and within just two hours of treatment here husband reported that she looked 50 to 60 percent better. Over the next two days she received five more 50 gram infusions of Vitamin C, and by hour 72 she was completely well. That was nearly two years ago. She has since suffered no relapses, nor is there any indication of a chronic infection.

Drug Antibiotics cause more Health problems that even the drug lovers at the FDA are thinking of taking them Off the market. There is not one drug that can prevent or cure any health problem like vitamin therapies. Cheap effective vitamin ‘C’ and vitamin/minerals to prevent reoccurrence and rebuild the immune system. Research: 'sugar the sweetest poison of all'

Only one thing Drugs do is temporally stop pain. Unless action is take cure the source, you are force to take more drugs just as the Druggies Want. These drug are extremely toxic and weaken the immune system and caused many deaths.

Heal the body and immune system and the body will heal itself.

Weather you have parasites or not, 'Human/Animal grade diatomaceous earth' will kill parasites in the gut and much more, Eighty to 89% silica and lesser amounts other minerals. Silica is the skeletal remains of fresh water hard-shelled algae.

All natural mineral, non toxic. I have used it over 20 months now and love what it is doing for me. Many call it a miracle for what its done for them. Helps Celiac disease, colon and fibromyalgia, ‘pain', arthritic, 'Parasites', colon, eczema, blood pressure, cholesterol, candida, age spots, adrenal, stomach, 'energy', heart, diarrhea, drugs, constipation, obesity, skin, eyes, hair and nails, toxin, heavy metals, and many more, This is why many call diatomaceous earth (DE, dirt, mud) 'a miracle’.  Works best with 3 to 6 grams and more vitamin C and without Processed sugar, oils. All ages! Can be found online, and animal feed suppliers and some health stores.
 Do the research:    ‘diatomaceous Earth testimonials’.

Quote, Dr F R Klenner, “ white blood cell without adequate vitamin ‘C’ is like soldiers without bullets”. …dez...

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:41 am
by SarahLonglands
Please don't tell untruths and worry people without reason. There is no way that the FDA is thinking of taking antibiotics off the market and to say so is absolutely not right..................Sarah

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:13 pm
by Anunymouse
The fda is so afraid of resistance they plan on dropping the us back into the dark ages.

Sounds legit.

Re: Antibiotics and hepatitis anyone?

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:46 am
by SarahLonglands
No, the only thing I can find is that certain abx are to be phased out for animals and that animals might in future need a prescription: because sometimes they do need them because they are ill, rather than because they want fattening up......................Sarah