If CCSVI is congenital...
If CCSVI is congenital...
...then how about if we start trying to create the condition in mice using the different theories behind how it occurs. What would you start with? I would start by depriving impregnated mice of certain vitamins such as folic acid, vitamin D, etc., or perhaps just malnourishment during pregnancy, in general. Is it possible to get a pregnant mouse to smoke cigarettes? ;)
It seems like an obvious course in the research, if it ever gets going. Then, when the mouse progeny starts showing signs of CCSVI, a cause can be pinpointed and perhaps CCSVI can be avoided for some. However, I guess it really does nothing for those of us who already have the condition.
It seems like an obvious course in the research, if it ever gets going. Then, when the mouse progeny starts showing signs of CCSVI, a cause can be pinpointed and perhaps CCSVI can be avoided for some. However, I guess it really does nothing for those of us who already have the condition.
Shannon,
The International Society for Neurovascular Disease (ISNVD) will discuss new evidence of CCSVI in animal models at their March meeting in Italy. We are very interested in this new evidence. As you mentioned, this is a big step.
This is linked on TIMS...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-15423-isnvd.html
See this link for topics....
http://www.isnvd.org/2010/11/annual-meeting-italy/
The International Society for Neurovascular Disease (ISNVD) will discuss new evidence of CCSVI in animal models at their March meeting in Italy. We are very interested in this new evidence. As you mentioned, this is a big step.
This is linked on TIMS...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-15423-isnvd.html
See this link for topics....
http://www.isnvd.org/2010/11/annual-meeting-italy/
It's a paradigm shift
- cheerleader
- Family Elder
- Posts: 5361
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:00 pm
- Location: southern California
Shannon---the specific truncular venous malformation (like a web) won't be created in mice. The affect this web has on the jugular vein can be created by crimping, pinching and closing off jugular veins in mice. That is how animal models are created.
cheer
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
This was one of the first things I investigated after I heard of CCSVI: How is the situation in animals? I found out that the neck vessel anatomy is very different in any other mammal because of the upright gait of humans.
Btw: Usually Vit D doesn't play a big role in animals with a natural habit beneath the surface ;)
Btw: Usually Vit D doesn't play a big role in animals with a natural habit beneath the surface ;)
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." Socrates
http://www.isnvd.org/2010/11/annual-meeting-italy/Major topics covered:
Ultrasound and MR imaging in treatment planning
The role of iron in MS and neurodegenerative disease
Perfusion deficits and hypoxia and possible relationships to CCSVI
New evidence of CCSVI in animal models
Related vascular problems: venous embriology, idiopathic intracranial hypertension, normotensive hydrocephalus, carotid surgery in stroke
CCSVI treatment: procedure and neurological outcomes
Genetic studies
Plethysmography
Flow dynamics: modeling the cerebral venous system
It's a paradigm shift
- cheerleader
- Family Elder
- Posts: 5361
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:00 pm
- Location: southern California
The INSVD will have pre-publication models in Bologna in March. Dr. Dake explained to me that non-human primate studies (apes, chimps etc...better models for humans circulatory system) would be the best model, but these studies are too expensive.Billmeik wrote:a bit off topic but where are the animal studies?I hoped the stanford ones would be either positive or negative by now. I dont see any mention of it in the march conference. How hard would it be to replicate putnam?(maybe very hard?)
The Animal Welfare Act prohibit experimentation on animals, unless they receive anesthesia...so Putnam's experiment would be too expensive, too. Mice are not protected under this law...which is why they are used.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/AWA2007/1980s.shtml
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
At least one study shows CCSVI to be more common among more advanced cases of MS and less common among early cases. That doesn't fit with the theory that CCSVI is congenital. Also if we are born with these defects then why does MS not manifest itself until we are in our thirties? (or 44 in my case?) I remain open to the idea that CCSVI is not congenital or at least not entirely congenital.
- 1eye
- Family Elder
- Posts: 3780
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:00 pm
- Location: Kanata, Ontario, Canada
- Contact:
Animal models are also created using genetic modification. I think to get things very close, an animal which walks upright may be needed. Experiments have been done on macaques, but I want to go on record as being against this. For CCSVI, animal experiments are in my opinion cruel and unnecessary. I certainly wouldn't want to get into a pithing contest over it.cheerleader wrote:Shannon---the specific truncular venous malformation (like a web) won't be created in mice. The affect this web has on the jugular vein can be created by crimping, pinching and closing off jugular veins in mice. That is how animal models are created.
cheer
This unit of entertainment not brought to you by FREMULON.
Not a doctor.
"I'm still here, how 'bout that? I may have lost my lunchbox, but I'm still here." John Cowan Hartford (December 30, 1937 – June 4, 2001)
Not a doctor.
"I'm still here, how 'bout that? I may have lost my lunchbox, but I'm still here." John Cowan Hartford (December 30, 1937 – June 4, 2001)
- cheerleader
- Family Elder
- Posts: 5361
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:00 pm
- Location: southern California
We've been down this path a few times, David. Dr. Simka says he found CCSVI in all ages of pwMS. So has Dr. Zamboni and Dr. Dake and Siskin, and all of those looking at CCSVI with venography. The venous experts are the ones who say CCSVI looks like truncular venous malformations. Dr. B.B. Lee explains it this way---it takes years of collateral circulation and venous congestion to create Budd Chiari disease (venous disease of the liver) Most are not diagnosed with this disease until their 30s or 40s, when the liver begins to fail. This would make sense with the later diagnosis in MS, when the brain begins to fail. Here's his paper, comparing the truncular venous malformations of CCSVI with Budd Chiari and other congenital defects:David1949 wrote:At least one study shows CCSVI to be more common among more advanced cases of MS and less common among early cases. That doesn't fit with the theory that CCSVI is congenital. Also if we are born with these defects then why does MS not manifest itself until we are in our thirties? (or 44 in my case?) I remain open to the idea that CCSVI is not congenital or at least not entirely congenital.
http://www.fondazionehilarescere.org/pd ... 8-ANGY.pdf
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
In the paper from Germany that Colin Rose linked to today, the researchers asked why we don't see MS in patients who have radical neck dissections with bilateral jugular ligations. It's because of the 30 years it takes for this to chronically result in neurological damage. With bilateral jugular ligation, there can be acute immediate venous congestion and issues of that sort, with possible fatal consequences, but there isn't MS.
-
- Similar Topics
- Replies
- Views
- Last post
-
- 1 Replies
- 5849 Views
-
Last post by NHE
-
- 1 Replies
- 1999 Views
-
Last post by NHE
-
- 6 Replies
- 2764 Views
-
Last post by vesta
-
- 0 Replies
- 1872 Views
-
Last post by Anonymoose