SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.
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THEGREEKFROMTHED
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by THEGREEKFROMTHED » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:08 am

SOU, yasoo!
Get some greek cafe and some baklava and relax! If jimmylegs helps even just one patient with magnesium defficiency wouldnt that be worth it? Until anyone can figure out what the hell is happening to us than trying something as simple as magnesium and zinc and a few adjustments is not unreasonable. fuck all the "science" Ive been fed the science for 4 years and cant walk. The mris' lumbar punctures, all the bullshit "science" aint doing crap for me. Im on board jimmylegs. Its going to take something fluky to fix us. Not science and rats and mice and gerbles all that bullshit.

No its going to take a guy like Sclafani or Jimmy or maybe even someones ancient chinese secret Mom to fix this disease. Science just keeps bringing harder and harsher and stronger meds.

Science....huh...gasp

τυρί ψωμί και ελιές οι βασιλιάδες των τροφίμων thats science!

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gauchito
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by gauchito » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:34 am

Sou´s statements are not extreme at all in a bad sense. Though I am curious about basis to conclude spasticity comes exclusively from damage in upper motor neurons. Generally speaking this does not seem to be the pathological path in MS. Do you have any material supporting your statement?

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sou
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by sou » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:11 pm

JL, I thought that the fact that tetanus caused spasms around the site of infection and afterwards spasms of the neck and rest of the body was common knowledge. There is also CNS involvement through tetanospasmin, a neurotoxin affecting GABA release. Again, I don't object that magnesium relaxes muscles (ion pumps, muscle contraction etc) but I doubt that it can help people walk.

gauchito, spasms may be the result of many medical conditions, however in MS they are is due to the loss of communication between the modulatory upper motor neurons and the0 alpha motor neurons at the lower levels of the spinal cord. This is a phenomenon that is not yet completely understood, but this is the big picture. The wikipedia article, though not scientific, has many references and a good description.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spasticity

I don't mean to offend anyone, we are just discussing.

sou

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sou
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by sou » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:17 pm

THEGREEKFROMTHED wrote:SOU, yasoo!
Get some greek cafe and some baklava and relax! If jimmylegs helps even just one patient with magnesium defficiency wouldnt that be worth it? Until anyone can figure out what the hell is happening to us than trying something as simple as magnesium and zinc and a few adjustments is not unreasonable.
I agree, I follow them, too, but I am not really convinced about their efficiency. Much better than useless drugs, though.
THEGREEKFROMTHED wrote: fuck all the "science" Ive been fed the science for 4 years and cant walk. The mris' lumbar punctures, all the bullshit "science" aint doing crap for me. Im on board jimmylegs. Its going to take something fluky to fix us. Not science and rats and mice and gerbles all that bullshit.
I blame scientists, not science.
THEGREEKFROMTHED wrote:τυρί ψωμί και ελιές οι βασιλιάδες των τροφίμων thats science!
Και θα πάει το ουρικό στο 150! Άσε καλύτερα. Χαχαχαχα!

sou

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gauchito
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by gauchito » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:04 pm

Sou. Thx very much. Of course we are just exchanging aiming at the sole goal of best possible recovery of function. I read carefully the wikipedia link you posted. In my understanding the conclusion you can draw from reading is exactly the opposite: spasticity may arise from damage in upper motor neurons OR multiple sclerosis. As we all know that MS is a vague term doctors use to characterize a group of pathological events they don´t clearly understand (at least they put a name useful to get organized and generate a revenue stream), I conclude that we need to learn more on what is really going on in the CNS. Otherwise we will give up and will have to accept the simple explanation of the multi-potent nerve damage just in the moment when we are fleeing from the simple explanation of the multi-potent lymphocyte.

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jimmylegs
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:41 pm

sorry, sou, i just don't understand how your tetanus comments provide any scientific backing for your argument about upper motor neuron damage being the only cause of spasticity. i also have no idea where the idea has come from, that correcting *spasticity* with magnesium is going to somehow fix a person who can't walk - unless spasticity is the ONLY reason they cannot walk.

as gauchito has mentioned, the wiki info you provided details a couple of reasons for spasticity: multiple sclerosis and cerebral palsy (spastic diplegia being the most common form of CP.. something people tend to get diagnosed with as babies).

both forms have links to magnesium.

Magnesium sulfate and decreased risk of cerebral palsy (2000)
http://www.cpparent.org/cpbooklet.htm#RESEARCH

"Research conducted and supported by the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS) continuously seeks to uncover new clues about cerebral palsy (CP). Investigators from the NINDS and the California Birth Defects Monitoring Program (CBDMP) presented data suggesting that very low birthweight babies have a decreased incidence of CP when their mothers are treated with magnesium sulfate soon before giving birth. The results of this study, which were based on observations of a group of children born in four Northern California counties, were published in the February 1995 issue of Pediatrics.*

Low birthweight babies are 100 times more likely to develop CP than normal birthweight infants. If further research confirms the study's findings, use of magnesium sulfate may prevent 25 percent of the cases of CP in the approximately 52,000 low birthweight babies born each year in the United States.

Magnesium is a natural compound that is responsible for numerous chemical processes within the body and brain. Obstetricians in the United States often administer magnesium sulfate, an inexpensive form of the compound, to pregnant women to prevent preterm labor and high blood pressure brought on by pregnancy. The drug, administered intravenously in the hospital, is considered safe when given under medical supervision.

Scientists speculate that magnesium may play a role in brain development and possibly prevent bleeding inside the brains of preterm infants. Previous research has shown that magnesium may protect against brain bleeding in very premature infants. Animal studies have demonstrated that magnesium given after a traumatic brain injury can reduce the severity of brain damage.

Despite these encouraging research findings, pregnant women should not change their magnesium intake because the effects of high doses have not yet been studied and the possible risks and benefits are not known.

Researchers caution that more research will be required to establish a definitive relationship between the drug and prevention of the disorder. Clinical trials now underway, one of them a collaboration between the NINDS and the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, are evaluating magnesium for the prevention of cerebral palsy in prematurely born babies.

*Nelson KB, and Grether JK. Can magnesium sulfate reduce the risk of cerebral palsy in very low birthweight infants? Pediatrics, February 1995, vol. 95, no. 2, page 263."

Serum levels of magnesium at birth related to complications of immaturity (1997)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

"Magnesium sulphate given prior to birth to pre-eclamptic mothers and mothers in preterm labour has in retrospect been found to be associated with a decreased incidence of both intraventricular haemorrhage and cerebral palsy."

also, re slow motion stroke:

Low levels of serum ionized magnesium are found in patients early after stroke which result in rapid elevation in cytosolic free calcium and spasm in cerebral vascular muscle cells
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4097004710

"Ninety-eight patients admitted to the emergency rooms of three urban hospitals with a diagnosis of either ischemic stroke or hemorrhagic stroke exhibited early and significant deficits in serum ionized Mg2+ (IMg2+), but not total Mg, as measured with a unique Mg2+-sensitive ion-selective electrode. Twenty-five percent of these stroke patients exhibited >65% reductions in the mean serum IMg2+ found in normal healthy human volunteers or patients admitted for minor bruises, cuts or deep lacerations..."

take away what you like from this folks :)
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by PointsNorth » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:01 pm

No stiffness before 1st. Complete resolution of stiffness upon 2nd.

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jimmylegs
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:17 pm

@TGFTM, check your email :)
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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sou
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by sou » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:58 pm

Multiple sclerosis and cerebral palsy can both damage the upper motor neurons. The former damages the myelin and/or the axons, the latter damages the neuron itself due to hypoxia.

Magnesium does nothing for cerebral palsy after it has already been present.

The upper motor neuron damage is the only cause of spasticity in MS.

sou

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jimmylegs
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:04 pm

i'm afraid that is just not true, sou. spasticity seen in some ms patients can be and has been remedied by normalizing their low magnesium status. it's a fact. it's true for me, and it's been true for other TIMS members here.

call it a co-morbidity, if that's what it takes for it to make sense in your view.

luckily TGFTM's spasticity is quite likely to respond to magnesium therapy, given the circumstances.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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jimmylegs
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:29 pm

Low serum magnesium levels can result in serious adverse events including muscle spasm (tetany), irregular heartbeat (arrhythmias), and convulsions (seizures);

The magnesium-deficiency tetany syndrome in man
BL Vallee, WEC Wacker… - New England Journal of …, 1960 - Mass Medical Soc
... On admission carpopedal spasm and a positive Chvostek sign were obvious, but the patient was completely oriented and lucid. The concentration of calcium in serum was normal, but that of magnesium was decreased to 0.94 milliequiv. per liter.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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sou
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by sou » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:25 am

JL, I agree that calcium/magnesium are essential for contracting/relaxing the muscles. Magnesium deficiency can only worsen spasticity, admittedly too much in some cases. Given the lack of side effects, I do find taking some extra magnesium a good strategy to follow. I already do.

Unfortunately, it can do nothing for the underlying upper neuron damage. This is the reason I doubt that magnesium supplementation can be a solution. Nonetheless, I can't find any solution, whatsoever.

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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:42 am

i don't think anyone claimed magnesium was going to be a solution for damaged neurons, sou - just a solution for spasticity. specifically, the sort of spasticity seen when a patient's serum magnesium levels fall below 0.90mmol/L. it's an easy thing to test for, luckily! and if tests are not accessible,

it's a pretty cheap supplement to experiment with, as long as you are certain to balance and time it properly with any vitamin d3 in the regimen, especially if you were low in magnesium to start with!

the pharmacist who first recommended magnesium to me said to take some of my daily magnesium with the daily d3, and some at a different time.

nowadays i only take d3 weekly, and magnesium (plus the rest of my supplements including whatever d3 is in my multi) through the rest of the week.

how much mag do you take each day, and what form? do you also take vit d3? do you take the mag with the d3, or at a different time?
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by broomdancer » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:24 am

Jimmylegs, upon reading your info on mag I added it to our vit regiment. My husband has MS and luckily I don't. A couple of amazing things happened that I would like to report. Firstly my husband had foot and ankle spasticty that I noticed happened constantly every night while he slept. This has disappeared completely. I no longer have extreme leg muscule contractions at night that were so painful at times I would cry out. I couldn't bend my legs under a chair or in bed as they would instantly lock up. Soooo grateful and surprised this hasn't happened since I began mag. Also and this is amazing..I have WPWS, an extra rapid heartbeat that happens occassionly, and I have't had this occur for ages. Don't know if this is all connected but I certainly want to express my gratitude to you for making us aware of how important vitamins and minerals are to our health. Please keep us informed. Thank you again. Cheers Diana

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sou
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Re: SPASM AND STIFFNESS AS SPASTICITY

Post by sou » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:58 am

I take 400mg chelated magnesium when I wake up, along with 1000 IU vit. D3, and 400 mg more at bedtime. It doesn't really help, AFAICT.

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