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Amir wrote:In spite of my personal disagreement with this story I hope this answers your question about why the Atlas is out of alignment!

Huh? I do not understand why something would explain / answer the question, if you disagree with it?

I am guessing the above story came from your responding to this article http://www.circlesoflight.com/reality-c ... curse.html

Also, your post back n 2008 implies that the Atlas adjustment could be performed first (ie the jaw alignment does not necessarily need to be performed first) Is this an actual change in your knowledge since you made this post?

Dr M Amir wrote:This does not mean the Atlas should not be corrected as it could help many without TMJ treatment, but if it does not resolve the issues a good spinal message would improve matters. If not then TMJ/Orthodontic intervention should be considered.

So hard not to comment on the story itself... but so off topic.

CureOrBust wrote:

Amir wrote:In spite of my personal disagreement with this story I hope this answers your question about why the Atlas is out of alignment!

Huh? I do not understand why something would explain / answer the question, if you disagree with it?

I am guessing the above story came from your responding to this article http://www.circlesoflight.com/reality-c ... curse.html

Also, your post back n 2008 implies that the Atlas adjustment could be performed first (ie the jaw alignment does not necessarily need to be performed first) Is this an actual change in your knowledge since you made this post?

Dr M Amir wrote:This does not mean the Atlas should not be corrected as it could help many without TMJ treatment, but if it does not resolve the issues a good spinal message would improve matters. If not then TMJ/Orthodontic intervention should be considered.

So hard not to comment on the story itself... but so off topic.

The story was meant as a bit of light entertainment!

Glad you found that comment.

My current thinking is:

Atlas asymmetry is not a genetic phenomenon. It could not be corrected if this was the case.

About 80% of patients have an Atlas asymmetry not 99% as claimed by some.
In the presence of severe dental asymmetries the correction often causes serious pain and discomfort and some additional symptoms may show up.
Correcting the Atlas often changes the TMJ and the dental midline.
Correcting the jaw impacts the Atlas and in some 25% of cases it corrects itself.
In the presence of severe jaw asymmetries wearing a correcting appliance first frees the Atlas for easier correction with maximal positive outcomes.

Extreme caution is required in cases where patients have had multiple high velocity neck adjustments. In such cases healing appliances have to be used for prolonged periods before Atlas correction.

Extreme caution is required in cases where neck surgery has been performed, where there is advanced Rheumatoid arthritic complications, in cases of ankylosing spondylitis and in cases where there is bony fusion of the occipital condyles with the Atlas. In such cases it cannot be corrected.

Amir wrote:...I hope this answers your question about why the Atlas is out of alignment!

Amir wrote:The story was meant as a bit of light entertainment!

I would recommend that in the future you do not precede a joke with the explicit statement that you post it to explain your previous statements without a smiley or some other clarification. Remember, in text its hard to convey tone of voice, especially when you have previously "participated" at web sites that are proponents of the above line of thought.

Amir wrote:My current thinking is:

Atlas asymmetry is not a genetic phenomenon. It could not be corrected if this was the case.

If someone had a genetic phenomenon where they had a large mole on the end of their nose, could it not be removed? I do not understand why/how the fact that it is genetic that it would necessarily return (I assume that is what you meant, your wording sounds absolute).

Amir wrote:About 80% of patients have an Atlas asymmetry not 99% as claimed by some.

Is that figure for the general population or for MS patients specifically?

Amir wrote:Extreme caution is required in cases where patients have had multiple high velocity neck adjustments

Are you specifically talking regarding chiropractic treatments? and do you see this as identifiable damage in medical examinations such as X-rays?

Amir wrote:My current thinking is:
Atlas asymmetry is not a genetic phenomenon. It could not be corrected if this was the case.

CureOrBust wrote:
"If someone had a genetic phenomenon where they had a large mole on the end of their nose, could it not be removed? I do not understand why/how the fact that it is genetic that it would necessarily return (I assume that is what you meant, your wording sounds absolute)."

This analogy is perhaps too simplistic. Symmetry is the hallmark of nature. Genes are sufficiently evolved to give the best and most symmetrical form to our structure for optimal function. As such it cannot have evolved a crooked Atlas as it would not contribute to the efficient functioning of our form.

If the Atlas was genetically crooked than everything else around it would have been of similar asymmetric construct to fit in. Correcting such an Atlas without going around chiselling and reshaping everything else will not work. Such tasks are impossible to accomplish while the removal of a mole is easily accomplished.

As it happens correcting the Atlas makes all the pieces of the jigsaw fit in and leads to an abatement of some symptoms that MSers suffer from.

Amir wrote:About 80% of patients have an Atlas asymmetry not 99% as claimed by some.

CureOrBustwrote:
"Is that figure for the general population or for MS patients specifically?"

This is my experience with patients suffering from a variety of illnesses including MS. In the general population it will vary from country to country and from urbanised communities to rural communities, from ancient life styles to modern living.
In general it should be less than 80%.

Amir wrote:Extreme caution is required in cases where patients have had multiple high velocity neck adjustments

CureOrBust wrote:
"Are you specifically talking regarding chiropractic treatments? and do you see this as identifiable damage in medical examinations such as X-rays?"

I do not wish to discredit any treatment which has more than likely all been undertaken in good faith. However, high velocity adjustments to the neck should be completely avoided because the damage to the neck is secondary to Atlas asymmetry and secondary to poor jaw relationships often from iatrogenic inteferences. The damage to the neck is obvious on scans especially if there is late stage damage and disc herniation which interferes with CSF flow. The cervical spine also loses its cervical lordosis and becomes more erect which can be seen on radiographs.

Brief update.

Emma was fitted for new upper and lower appliances that were installed on Tuesday 10th January.

Neuaralgic pain had started to creep back in again (with the old appliances) and was becoming more than uncomfortable. These were now 37-38 days old and had reached the limit of adjustment.

With new braces installed on Tuesday all neuralgic pain has once again ceased. It's taken a couple of days for Emma to get some degree of comfort (comfort being relative here!) with these new appliances as they have some extra bits and pieces attached over the old ones.

Next appointment 14 days for a check up to see how things are moving.

I took Emma to see Amir today to collect a new lower appliance and have her atlas checked. It's almost two months to the day that Emma had her first appliance fitted and at that time Amir checked her atlas and found it was out by a noticeable margin. Prior to seeing Amir Emma had been to a Chiropractor and each visit needed the atlas realigning, so we new this was out.

Emma's new lower appliance was fitted and is a far better fit than the one it replaced. These appliances are designed to create the gaps required between the teeth to enable Amir to use more traditional fixed appliances along with his own special creations to move the teeth into the appropriate position as well as move the jaw as much as possible. We have an appointment for two weeks today which should be for the fitment of lower fixed braces.

After this Margaret took Emma through to the 4D "scanning" machine (Deers 4D Formetric mentioned in his other thread). We'd not been on this before so this was all new. After a false start, Emma had her photograph taken and interpreted by the machine which showed only slight hip drop of 3 degrees to the right and that was about it, quite a surprise actually. It was then through to the Chiro couch to check and realign Emma's atlas. It didn't need it, to our surprise the braces had done it for us, the Atlas was absolutely spot on, no need for adjustment! Amir was delighted and said he's finding that maybe as many as 25% of patients correct themselves after brace therapy.

So I'm afraid I can't fill you in on details of how the atlas is adjusted as Emma's body did it itself.

We asked Amir when Emma would expect to see any physical improvements, he suggested these would start to develop as the realignment work continues. Next visit for us Thursday 16th 1pm.

Is it helping? Are we noticing any difference?

Yes, it's helping, Neuralgic pain is now almost completely eradicated, Emma only gets occasional pins and needle tingles when her braces are out. Compared to the debilitating pain she was suffering this is a vast improvement. Emma has yet to have any physical gait improvements or stamina, these are expected to come with time with continued treatment. At only two months in, Amir is still arranging the teeth/jaw into a position that will allow further adjustments and realignments to be made.

EJC wrote:Yes, it's helping, Neuralgic pain is now almost completely eradicated, Emma only gets occasional pins and needle tingles when her braces are out. Compared to the debilitating pain she was suffering this is a vast improvement. Emma has yet to have any physical gait improvements or stamina, these are expected to come with time with continued treatment. At only two months in, Amir is still arranging the teeth/jaw into a position that will allow further adjustments and realignments to be made.

great to hear. i wish you continued success.

DougL wrote:

EJC wrote:Yes, it's helping, Neuralgic pain is now almost completely eradicated, Emma only gets occasional pins and needle tingles when her braces are out. Compared to the debilitating pain she was suffering this is a vast improvement. Emma has yet to have any physical gait improvements or stamina, these are expected to come with time with continued treatment. At only two months in, Amir is still arranging the teeth/jaw into a position that will allow further adjustments and realignments to be made.

great to hear. i wish you continued success.

Thanks Doug, I will continue to post updates for Emma monthly through the first year at least. Plus at other intervals if anything of interest occurs.

EJC wrote: Is it helping? Are we noticing any difference?

Yes, it's helping, Neuralgic pain is now almost completely eradicated, Emma only gets occasional pins and needle tingles when her braces are out. Compared to the debilitating pain she was suffering this is a vast improvement. Emma has yet to have any physical gait improvements or stamina, these are expected to come with time with continued treatment. At only two months in, Amir is still arranging the teeth/jaw into a position that will allow further adjustments and realignments to be made.

One thing you failed to mention is the improvements to the 'nystagmumbling' eye. Any comments?

Amir,


I hope you dont mind but I would like, if I may, ask you a question to satisfy my own curiosity, you being the best person to ask as a qualified dentist.

Have you noticed that MS patients have an increased risk of bleeding gums, which you would consider to be gum disease,

Thank you for your input.

Amir wrote:

EJC wrote: Is it helping? Are we noticing any difference?

Yes, it's helping, Neuralgic pain is now almost completely eradicated, Emma only gets occasional pins and needle tingles when her braces are out. Compared to the debilitating pain she was suffering this is a vast improvement. Emma has yet to have any physical gait improvements or stamina, these are expected to come with time with continued treatment. At only two months in, Amir is still arranging the teeth/jaw into a position that will allow further adjustments and realignments to be made.

One thing you failed to mention is the improvements to the 'nystagmumbling' eye. Any comments?

True I forgot that Amir, Emma had very mild "Bells Palsy" type symptoms on the left side of her face, her left eye would wander which gave her motion sickness and depth of field vision problems. She also had a droopy eyelid.

The eyelid is now where it should be, the wandering eye has reduced but not stopped completely and is now only prevelant when Emma is tired. The Bells Palsy like symptoms hav, on the whole, dissapeared.

These changes are subtle and being with Emma everyday means I miss some of them, they are more obvious to others if they've not seen Emma for a few weeks.

icecube2 wrote:Amir,


I hope you dont mind but I would like, if I may, ask you a question to satisfy my own curiosity, you being the best person to ask as a qualified dentist.

Have you noticed that MS patients have an increased risk of bleeding gums, which you would consider to be gum disease,

Thank you for your input.

It is a good question and close to my heart. I wrote an article on salt some years ago. Here is the link:

http://www.positivehealth.com/article/n ... ic-wonders

MS patients would be much more susceptible if they are taking immune modulating drugs and in these cases it is imperative that the advice in the article is followed.

I had a patient who suffered from Leukaemia which was treated and she recovered. However the illness returned a couple of years later and she came to see me before her chemotherapy saying that her biggest worry was that her gums would bleed and get very infected again. It transpired that she was given mouthwashes while in hospital which made a bad situation worse. I recommended what I say in the article and she returned a few months later saying that this time her gums were perfect. She never had a problem.

MS patients can similarly control their gum problems.

EJC wrote:

Amir wrote:

EJC wrote: Is it helping? Are we noticing any difference?

Yes, it's helping, Neuralgic pain is now almost completely eradicated, Emma only gets occasional pins and needle tingles when her braces are out. Compared to the debilitating pain she was suffering this is a vast improvement. Emma has yet to have any physical gait improvements or stamina, these are expected to come with time with continued treatment. At only two months in, Amir is still arranging the teeth/jaw into a position that will allow further adjustments and realignments to be made.

One thing you failed to mention is the improvements to the 'nystagmumbling' eye. Any comments?

True I forgot that Amir, Emma had very mild "Bells Palsy" type symptoms on the left side of her face, her left eye would wander which gave her motion sickness and depth of field vision problems. She also had a droopy eyelid.

The eyelid is now where it should be, the wandering eye has reduced but not stopped completely and is now only prevelant when Emma is tired. The Bells Palsy like symptoms hav, on the whole, dissapeared.

These changes are subtle and being with Emma everyday means I miss some of them, they are more obvious to others if they've not seen Emma for a few weeks.

The reason I asked this question was because I am a bit concerned about this symptom which appears to be jaw related considering the rapidity with which it settled down. I have noticed this with some other non MS patients who came with various eye problems which also easily healed through appropriate TMJ treatment.

However in the medical circles the description for this symptom is:

"Nystagmus is rapid, involuntary movements of the eyes which is often unnoticeable to people with the complaint. To others it resembles the eye movements when someone is looking at the scenery from the window of a moving train. Usually it occurs in the horizontal plane but it can also affect the vertical.

Nystagmus can be caused by a variety of underlying conditions, including multiple sclerosis of which it is quite a common symptom. Most presentations of a type of nystagmus called Acquired Pendular Nystagmus are associated with multiple sclerosis.

In MS, nystagmus is often associated with internuclear ophthalmoplegia - which is a loss of coordination between the two eyes caused by a lesion in an area of the brain called the medial longitudinal fasciculus (MLF). Nystagmus can also be caused by lesions in the cerebellum, the area of the brainstem where the vestibular cranial nerve arises or further along the vestibular pathways.

Apart from immunomodulating drugs and steroids, there are no treatments for nystagmus. If it is a troubling condition it may be a good idea to experiment with different lighting levels. As with most symptoms of MS, fatigue and heat (Uhthoff's symptom) usually make the condition worse." as per: http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/nystagmus.html

These 'nystagmumbling' explanations simply befuddle the patients and probably have no bearing whatsoever on the underlying problem.

Emma still displays some of these symptoms, they haven't been completely erradicated as yet. However you've not yet started treatment on Emma's TMJ (as far as I understand) so it will be interesting to see if she gets further improvements once this treatment starts. We'll monitor this closely.

EJC wrote:Emma still displays some of these symptoms, they haven't been completely erradicated as yet. However you've not yet started treatment on Emma's TMJ (as far as I understand) so it will be interesting to see if she gets further improvements once this treatment starts. We'll monitor this closely.

To avoid any confusion Emma's TMJ is affected the moment she had the first appliance in. Her treatment however is more complex then the run of the mill and further improvements will continue as we forge ahead with the rest of the treatment plan.