are my syptoms Multiple Sclerosis?

[jimmylegs]

yep the tums are bad, and a few nutritional tests including serum zinc and serum magnesium and serum cobalamin are definitely a smart plan. re whether you need a doc for testing, it depends where you live.

re the swallowing issue, i never had trouble when just b12 deficient, although it could be the case for you. my throat issues were the worst when my magnesium was low, which could have happened for you in part due to the tums routine.

so what is driving your decision to be vegetarian? i was protesting industrial food and i also believed 100% that it was healthier than an omnivorous diet. then i got a science education conveniently right when the wheels came off on my health.

[chad]

I really appreciate your guys help. I feel very anxious (the good kind) to start this week with the blood testing and get one step closer to a solution. Thank you.

[chad]

Well, eating animals started feeling 'wrong' to me on so many levels. So I just kicked it cold turkey, pun intended. Looks like I may have to start eating meat or fish again. I tried to substitute nuts and beans in place of meat. But then the nut intolerance popped up.

Very interesting I just read b12 is only produced in animals. Shatters my theory that we were meant to live on plants alone.

[jimmylegs]

no worries get your own copy of results because they will probably all come back 'normal'

serum vitamin B12: aim for at least 370 pmol/L (500 pg/mL)
serum zinc: aim for 18.2-18.4 umol/L. (~120 ug/dL)
serum magnesium: aim for .95-1.1 mmol/L. (or 2.3-2.7 mg/dL)

interesting re the nut intolerance. zinc deficiency has been linked to allergy in research. wild fish, farmed shellfish, and game meat or grass fed beef are good choices.
high veg and fruit intake is excellent but i don't think animal protein should be removed entirely from diet

genius study lol

Antiproliferative Activity of Zinc and Metal Alloy Nanoparticles in Transplanted Sarcomas
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 014-2356-9

here's an idea, eat enough zinc!

[lyndacarol]

As for B12, it is only found in animal sources; meat and fish are good sources, eggs and cheese, too. I seem to recall that you said you eat a lot of cheese.

B12 is extracted from its source by pepsin and hydrochloric acid – so antacids are not good. Intrinsic Factor is also made in the stomach and used along with about 15 other proteins to move the B12 along the metabolism pathway. It is finally absorbed in the ileum (the third portion of the small intestine).

Another possible problem in the intestines is gluten sensitivity. Some people are sensitive to gluten (a protein in wheat products); it causes the production of zonulin, which opens the spaces between the cells of the intestines and allows bigger than normal proteins or pieces of food to pass directly into the bloodstream. This can be the beginning of food allergies – when the immune system reacts to these large protein pieces (such as nuts).

Gluten sensitivity can be the source of many symptoms, such as you describe (however, it seems to me that your biggest correlation is with the B12 lists). But it is possible to have two problems going on at the same time. Your doctor can order tests for gluten sensitivity.

Either gluten sensitivity or B12 deficiency can develop at any time in a person's life.

[chad]

I had eaten nuts all my life with no issues. Then one day around age 25 basically I would get foul smelling burps each time I ate only a few nuts. They would also not digest and essentially grinded up the contents of my bowels. This came on within a year of diabetes and lactose intolerance popping out of nowhere.

Doc said my diabetes was 'cured' and took me off metformin after 8 months or so. Just recently I've dabbled in eating nuts and nothing happened, so I bought a Costco bag of pistachios and ate that in a 4 day span and had no issues. At first I had bad problems with cheese and milk. I can handle cheese again, but milk really upsets my stomach.

Very random and frustrating, but thanks to you guys I have a positive outlook on this whole situation! I am honestly scared though too. I will be sure to post my lab results when I get them.

[jimmylegs]

personally, i knew about b12 as an issue for vegetarians and vegans from day one but i was just an idiot about it. i got all my nutrition info from pro-vegan web sites and didn't even know how to search for scientific research. i held on for a long time, but when i cut processed (read fortified) foods, that was when it got really bad.

diabetes, food and lactose intolerance, these all point to nutrient deficits. i am pretty certain you'll be getting info you can use when your results are in!

[chad]

I'm at the lab now! Going to get the b12 and the homocysteine tests done since they don't require a Dr. approval. Will post the results. Asked for zinc, magnesium, mma & folic acid tests but it looks like I will need a Dr.s order for those.

[jimmylegs]

nice! if you're in the states you can order a lab requisition online too.

[chad]

Well I was able to get the folic acid test done. $165 for all 3 tests. I will get the results on Wednesday.

What is a lab requisition?

[jimmylegs]

good stuff! a lab req is what the doc would write out so you could then take it to the lab and get those other tests done. or, if you're in the US, you can take advantage of options like this:

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements ... -Test.html
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements ... -Test.html

[chad]

I see. Was thinking about calling 'the doctors' show doc hotline for $40 to try and get the recommendations. Will try the links you provided instead.

I see you posted what normal levels are for zinc, magnesium, b12.... What should I look for on the homocysteine and folic acid tests?

[jimmylegs]

heya i posted *targets* which are waaay more focused than normal levels.

i don't have target info for folic acid or Hcy ... found one study that could start building evidence for a healthy Hcy number though:

Increased plasma homocysteine levels without signs of vitamin B12 defiŽciency in patients with multiple sclerosis assessed by blood and cerebrospinal  fluid homocysteine and methylmalonic acid
http://msj.sagepub.com/content/9/3/239.short
Results: The mean plasma tHcy level was significantly increased in MS patients (11.6 mmol/L) compared with controls (7.4 mmol/L) (P</0.002). Seven patients showed low serum vitamin B12 levels but only one of them had concomitant high plasma tHcy. None of them showed high serum MMA . Plasma or blood folate levels did not differ between MS patients and controls. We found no significant differences in mean values or frequency of pathological tests of serum B12, serum MMA , mean corpuscular volume (MCV), haemoglobin concentration, CSF tHcy or CSF MMA between patients and healthy subjects. There were no correlations between CSF and serum/plasma levels of MMA or tHcy. Serum vitamin B12, serum MMA , plasma tHcy, C SF Hcy or CSF MMA were not correlated to disability status, activity of disease, duration of disease or age. Conclusions: The relevance of the increased mean value of plasma tHcy thus seems uncertain and does not indicate functional vitamin B12 deficiency.

[chad]

I have been looking at some webpages about the different stages of b12 deficiency. Here's what I gathered, please correct me if I am wrong.

If my homocysteine levels come back high, that would place me at stage 3 at a minimum? If homocysteine is normal but my b12 is still low, I would fall into stage 1 or 2? Stage 2 confirmation would take a testing of my tissue? How is stage 4 confirmed? I'm assuming when b12 treatments don't work?

I'm also seeing debate of cyanocobalimin and methylcobalimin and a 3rd type of cobalimin. Any thoughts on which is best? I read that methylcobalimin is most effective for neurological issues?

What will the folic acid test tell me?

[jimmylegs]

i haven't gotten into that much detail on b12 since 2006 so i am a bit rusty.
what i remember is, there's a whole bunch of testing that has to do with people who have poor status in spite of having b12 foods in diet, and who don't see their levels improve with supplements.
you, as a vegetarian, are likely to see your levels improve obediently with dietary revisions.
due to the presence of natural cofactors, healthy foods are the better choice as a foundation for a new regimen. b12 food list here
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
you can just do the math each day, make sure you are getting at LEAST 100% of the recommended daily amount.
as for cyanocobalamin vs methylcobalamin, cyano is cheap, long shelf life, methyl is more expensive and more biologically appropriate as supplements go. you'd be okay with a sublingual since b12 enters your bloodstream directly through the mucous membranes.