Constellation of symptoms

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jimmylegs
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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by jimmylegs » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:59 pm

ok bloodwork comments prev page, now am on supplement review
My supplements are

a. B complex with Ubiquinol
c. Vitamin C (1g 2x/day)
d. Acetyl-L-Carnatine (1g 2x/ day)
e. NAC (600mg 2x/day)
f. Fish oil (3000mg/day)
g. Alpha-lipoic-acid
h. Zinc (2x/day)
i. Magnesium L-threonate (3 capsulse/day)
j. Iberogast
k. Probiotic
l. Vitamin D3 (4000 IU)
m. Lavender oil
n. Vitamin B12 (1000mcg 2x/day)
o. CoQ10
p. Digestive enzymes

I just finished Nilstat and Toxaprevent.
first things i looked at were zinc and mag.

high alert re zinc product.
1. zinc 2x50mg = 100mg per day that is a therapeutic level of intake only, not maintenance.
a. on whose direction are you taking that amount and for how long now?
b. why no serum zinc test in the lab mix, to go with that intake?

2. i see no copper in that zinc product. high zinc intake when not balanced with copper leads to copper depletion which has its own neurological syndrome. (high zinc pulls iron down as well but that's not first on your list of issues atm)
a. why is there no serum copper test in the mix, to monitor while at that level of zinc intake?
https://neuromuscular.wustl.edu/nother/ ... htm#copper

3. zinc product contains b6 in an amount which exceeds daily max. b6 is associated with neuropathy at daily intakes above 100mg from supplements. zinc product contains 125mg. you're taking two so you're getting 250mg of vit b6 per day in supplement form before we even get into details of the b complex. stop.
https://neuromuscular.wustl.edu/nother/ ... oxineintox

i'm going to let that message stand on its own for a while before i say anything else about the regimen!
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

oddbuds
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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by oddbuds » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:12 pm

jimmylegs wrote: my initial thoughts:

b12 looks good in pmol/l, and the MCV, MCHC back up good status from the haem perspective at least.

re ALP, GGT, ALT, AST - unhappy liver; i'll need to read back over your earlier info again. also need to read up on LD

high cholesterol, highish triglycerides, i'll read back to check if you've been working on those to any extent already.

re d3, 65 is insufficiency. 75 bottom end of desirable. other lit IDs 90-100 nmol/l as the best bet for a *limited* array of outcomes. some work IDs 150 nmol/l as a good zone and any higher leading to more problems in certain groups. the research is finally starting to get into interactions to a greater degree, ignorance of which over the years has been and apparently continues to be a pet peeve of mine.

good to see that ferritin coming down over time. was that spike earlier in the year related to that apparent infection? wonder if it has continued to drop into a better part of the range (80-100 ug/l or so?)

CRP looks high more often than you want, but is it from a sequence of infections? can also be high in context of suboptimal magnesium

Mg status could definitely be better; could be worth the effort to push that up to at least 0.95 mmol/l.

last page is on the annoying side; no local referene ranges included (not to say those are perfect by any stretch, mind you)
Here's my latest blood tests result - Part 4 (Nov)

re ALP, GGT, ALT, AST - all within normal except for GGT which is slightly elevated, happy liver? :smile:

re Cholesterol - I lessen intake of food sources with saturated fats plus exercise (aerobic and weights) 3 to 5 times a week.

re d3 - I've been supplementing D3 4000 IU. I forgot to ask the GP to have it checked again

re ferritin - it could be related to the swollen ankle which was later on diagnosed as gout by another GP. I have flagged this with my current GP and she ordered another test

re CRP - yeah, the first time it could be related to the swollen ankle which was later on diagnosed as gout by another GP. The second time, I'm not too sure what could have caused it. I have flagged this with my current GP and she ordered another test

re Mg - any suggestions? Should I increase my Mg supplement?

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by oddbuds » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:22 pm

jimmylegs wrote:ok bloodwork comments prev page, now am on supplement review
My supplements are

a. B complex with Ubiquinol
c. Vitamin C (1g 2x/day)
d. Acetyl-L-Carnatine (1g 2x/ day)
e. NAC (600mg 2x/day)
f. Fish oil (3000mg/day)
g. Alpha-lipoic-acid
h. Zinc (2x/day)
i. Magnesium L-threonate (3 capsulse/day)
j. Iberogast
k. Probiotic
l. Vitamin D3 (4000 IU)
m. Lavender oil
n. Vitamin B12 (1000mcg 2x/day)
o. CoQ10
p. Digestive enzymes

I just finished Nilstat and Toxaprevent.
first things i looked at were zinc and mag.

high alert re zinc product.
1. zinc 2x50mg = 100mg per day that is a therapeutic level of intake only, not maintenance.
a. on whose direction are you taking that amount and for how long now?
b. why no serum zinc test in the lab mix, to go with that intake?

2. i see no copper in that zinc product. high zinc intake when not balanced with copper leads to copper depletion which has its own neurological syndrome. (high zinc pulls iron down as well but that's not first on your list of issues atm)
a. why is there no serum copper test in the mix, to monitor while at that level of zinc intake?
https://neuromuscular.wustl.edu/nother/ ... htm#copper

3. zinc product contains b6 in an amount which exceeds daily max. b6 is associated with neuropathy at daily intakes above 100mg from supplements. zinc product contains 125mg. you're taking two so you're getting 250mg of vit b6 per day in supplement form before we even get into details of the b complex. stop.
https://neuromuscular.wustl.edu/nother/ ... oxineintox

i'm going to let that message stand on its own for a while before i say anything else about the regimen!
1. Zinc
  • a. Under GP and naturopath's direction/supervision for 3 weeks now.
    b. Prior to supplementation it was 13 umol/L and now it is at 16.9 umol/L. They want me to be between 17-19 umol/L
2. Copper - I'll follow-up with my GP on this.

3. B6 - I have raised this concernt to my GP and she wasn't concerned. We didn't got to finish the the discussion as was short of time. I'll follow-up on this as I'm concerned as well. In the meantime, I will replace my zinc supplement with one that don't have B6.

Thanks jimmylegs for flagging those!!!

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by oddbuds » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:36 pm

1. Anyone have tried PEA - Palmitoylethanolamide (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26815246)?
My current GP recommended it as mast cell stabilizer as I complained about itchiness mostly in my scalp, face, neck and back but sometimes in arms and/or legs which is relieved by OTC antihistamine.

2. My GP also recommended:
  • a. l-5mthf - instead of folate or folic acid as I have MTHFR mutation
    b. SAMe - from what I remember in my consult, this is to help with my sleep?
I haven't really look into those in detail and was wondering if anyone is familiar with them.

Lately, I've been able to sleep a little better (7hrs) and I believe it is because I've been pushing myself harder in my exercise. As a result, my body is forced to shutdown and get the needed rest.

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by NHE » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:40 am

oddbuds wrote:1. Anyone have tried PEA - Palmitoylethanolamide (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26815246)?
My current GP recommended it as mast cell stabilizer as I complained about itchiness mostly in my scalp, face, neck and back but sometimes in arms and/or legs which is relieved by OTC antihistamine.

2. My GP also recommended:
  • a. l-5mthf - instead of folate or folic acid as I have MTHFR mutation
    b. SAMe - from what I remember in my consult, this is to help with my sleep?
I haven't really look into those in detail and was wondering if anyone is familiar with them.
You may wish to watch Dr. Ben Lynch's presentation discussing methylfolate.
  • Folate Metabolism and MTHFR: An Introduction
I became folate deficient from drinking 4 cups/day of green tea. EGCG inhibits both folate uptake and folate processing. The folate deficiency led to a B12 deficiency as spent B12 was no longer being recycled back to the active methylcobalamin form. Here's an overview of my experience. http://www.thisisms.com/forum/natural-a ... 26996.html I used to take this methylfolate from Superior Source. https://www.vitacost.com/superior-sourc ... -tablets-1 Though I now take their combined B12+folate+B6 combination. https://www.vitacost.com/superior-sourc ... thylfolate

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jimmylegs
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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by jimmylegs » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:33 am

good to see updated results, and thx for replies to questions. liver does look happier ;)

re new bloodwork i don't personally have much to say about the infectious stuff other than that yes there is evidence of a past ebv infection which would be similar to 95% of the population as i understand it. at arm's length i've been able via nutrition to reduce another's ebv viral load and get them to functional again long term, but if that person were to be tested today, the ebv history would still be detectable.

numbers are much more my thing - good to see improvement in the zinc department.

more feedback to come in next follow-up re supplements.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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jimmylegs
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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by jimmylegs » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:50 am

hi again. now for
1. Zinc
a. Under GP and naturopath's direction/supervision for 3 weeks now.
b. Prior to supplementation it was 13 umol/L and now it is at 16.9 umol/L. They want me to be between 17-19 umol/L

2. Copper - I'll follow-up with my GP on this.

3. B6 - I have raised this concernt to my GP and she wasn't concerned. We didn't got to finish the the discussion as was short of time. I'll follow-up on this as I'm concerned as well. In the meantime, I will replace my zinc supplement with one that don't have B6.
re zinc i like that it's only been three weeks and that you are close to achieving the provided target (which i also like). not a huge copper concern - unless maybe you were copper deficient to start, that is.

re copper, if you are on zinc 100mg/d for a month, that should be fine. if you had a serum copper result you would have a better sense whether to a. continue with plain zinc (ie to bring a high copper number down below zinc values) or b. ensure use of a zinc supplement properly balanced w copper.

overall, the copper zinc ratio in serum is more important than either level alone (i can defs get on board with zinc in the high teens though. less locked in on a range for copper. just 'a bit less than zinc' - and at your present zinc level, serum copper no lower than say 12 umol/l)

re b6 no need to waste the existing zinc product. once you have a new one in the mix, one better suited to long term maintenance (with whole food dietary sources coming first and foremost of course), you could sub in one of those zinc/b6 pills every three to four days to get it used up.

that's that for the moment - magnesium-related and any other thoughts to follow.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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jimmylegs
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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by jimmylegs » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:59 am

hi again. on to magnesium.

dietary inputs and minimizing lifestyle depletion are important first and foremost.

based on the basic ingredients of your typical daily routine, how much mag are you getting from food per day, on average? if you don't know, you can find resources to help you figure it out at the start of the diet forum (food composition databases).

do you know how much magnesium you need per day? if not you can find resources to help you figure that out also at the top of the diet forum (dietary reference tables). consider however that these are designed for average joe healthy person and you may need more if chronically depleted or have above average activity levels. based on the workout regimen described, consider yourself to be at the higher end of the range where mag intake requirements are concerned. in lit specific to mag intake, authors have suggested 7-10 mg/kg body weight per day.

from there, subtract dietary intake estimate to assess how much more is needed via other means (which can include a variety of things including transdermal options). based on past serum levels, looks like status quo may not be quite there yet. especially not if exercise levels have increased since last serum mag assessment.

re mag threonate, as much as i do like divided doses, that three per day looks pricey for the dose involved. compare orange naturals' mag glycinate which contains more elemental mag per single cap serving (200mg) than a 3-cap serving of mag-tein (144mg), and that at roughly 1/3 the price per bottle, based on a quick scan of online vendors.

others here at tims have experienced improvements to muscular symptoms with a simple switch to mag glycinate (not from mag threonate mind you, more like citrate or oxide). although it appears that more recent research attention has been paid to mag threonate than to mag glycinate, it has not been omitted:

"Magnesium glycinate, threonate, and malate, found in more expensive physician-grade supplements, are magnesium salts of organic acids with higher bioavailability, increasing absorption and minimizing GI discomfort"

(i just can't get at full text for this article's source material, ie https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11550076).

in addition to food sources, mag glycinate might be a beneficial and economic consideration for inclusion in your current rotation.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by NHE » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:30 am

jimmylegs wrote:hi again. on to magnesium.

dietary inputs and minimizing lifestyle depletion are important first and foremost.

based on the basic ingredients of your typical daily routine, how much mag are you getting from food per day, on average? if you don't know, you can find resources to help you figure it out at the start of the diet forum (food composition databases).

do you know how much magnesium you need per day? if not you can find resources to help you figure that out also at the top of the diet forum (dietary reference tables). consider however that these are designed for average joe healthy person and you may need more if chronically depleted or have above average activity levels. based on the workout regimen described, consider yourself to be at the higher end of the range where mag intake requirements are concerned. in lit specific to mag intake, authors have suggested 7-10 mg/kg body weight per day.

from there, subtract dietary intake estimate to assess how much more is needed via other means (which can include a variety of things including transdermal options). based on past serum levels, looks like status quo may not be quite there yet. especially not if exercise levels have increased since last serum mag assessment.

re mag threonate, as much as i do like divided doses, that three per day looks pricey for the dose involved. compare orange naturals' mag glycinate which contains more elemental mag per single cap serving (200mg) than a 3-cap serving of mag-tein (144mg), and that at roughly 1/3 the price per bottle, based on a quick scan of online vendors.
Magnesium threonate is a special formulation of magnesium to help it cross the blood brain barrier and thus increase synaptic density. http://www.thisisms.com/forum/natural-a ... ml#p243455

I suspect that one should also take magnesium glycinate in addition to magnesium threonate.

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by NHE » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:54 am

oddbuds wrote:1. Anyone have tried PEA - Palmitoylethanolamide (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26815246)?
My current GP recommended it as mast cell stabilizer as I complained about itchiness mostly in my scalp, face, neck and back but sometimes in arms and/or legs which is relieved by OTC antihistamine.
I haven't tried it. However, it's supposed to help neuropathic pain.

Therapeutic utility of palmitoylethanolamide in the treatment of neuropathic pain associated with various pathological conditions: a case series.
J Pain Res. 2012;5:437-42.
  • Palmitoylethanolamide (PEA), an endogenous fatty acid amide, has been demonstrated to bind to a receptor in the cell nucleus - the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor - and performs a great variety of biological functions related to chronic and neuropathic pain and inflammation, as has been demonstrated in clinical trials. These include peripheral neuropathies such as diabetic neuropathy, chemotherapy-induced peripheral neuropathy, carpal tunnel syndrome, sciatic pain, osteoarthritis, low-back pain, failed back surgery syndrome, dental pains, neuropathic pain in stroke and multiple sclerosis, chronic pelvic pain, postherpetic neuralgia, and vaginal pains. Probably due to the fact that PEA is an endogenous modulator as well as a compound in food, such as eggs and milk, no serious side effects have been reported, nor have drug-drug interactions. This article presents a case series describing the application and potential efficacy and safety of PEA in the treatment of various syndromes associated with chronic pain that is poorly responsive to standard therapies.
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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by ElliotB » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:21 am

This is obviously a long shot but because it is an all natural drug free supplement derived from common foods it might be worthwhile to try it because you never know. Miracles have been known to happen!

https://www.amazon.com/Mirica%C2%AE-Pal ... 07365MZLY/
It is also available in bulk powder form than you can mix in a beverage and drink here:

https://www.amazon.com/PEA-powder-Palmi ... 01DJ84VRM/


I am going to try it. There are numerous companies offering capsules and the one I linked to above was selected at random. The powder availability is limited. I ordered the one I linked to.

This supplement seems to have numerous favorable reviews across different platforms. I will keep my fingers crossed but won't hold my breath!

Warning: "Palmitoylethanolamide PEA" is very different from Pea based supplements which have the letters PEA in their name but have their ingredients extracted from peas.
Last edited by ElliotB on Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:11 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:55 am

re the threonate bbb pitch, that is correct. related:
  • Enhancement of Learning and Memory by Elevating Brain Magnesium (2010)

    "in a separate study, the bioavailability (evaluated by absorption, excretion, and retention rate of magnesium) of four commercially available Mg2+ compounds (magnesium-chloride, -citrate, -glycinate, and -gluconate) and two Mg2+ preparations we developed (magnesium-L-threonate, MgT, and magnesium-gluconate in milk) was compared in rats. We found that both MgT and magnesium-gluconate in milk have higher bioavailability (X.Z., F. Mao, Y. Shang, N.A., and G.L., unpublished data).

    Here, we explored the ability of our newly developed compounds to increase the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) Mg2+ concentration ([Mg2+]CSF).
    ...
    G.L. declares that he is a cofounder of Magceutics, a company whose goal is to develop drugs to treat age-dependent memory decline and Alzheimer's disease."
i'll wait for published comparisons in non patented products. maybe even ones where the nutrient's effects were tested on people.

in the meantime i am okay personally with the extent to which other forms of mag successfully make it into brain tissue.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by NHE » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:02 pm

jimmylegs wrote:i'll wait for published comparisons in non patented products. maybe even ones where the nutrient's effects were tested on people.

in the meantime i am okay personally with the extent to which other forms of mag successfully make it into brain tissue.

Efficacy and Safety of MMFS-01, a Synapse Density Enhancer, for Treating Cognitive Impairment in Older Adults: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trial.
J Alzheimers Dis. 2015;49(4):971-90.
  • BACKGROUND: Cognitive impairment is a major problem in elderly, affecting quality of life. Pre-clinical studies show that MMFS-01, a synapse density enhancer, is effective at reversing cognitive decline in aging rodents.

    OBJECTIVE: Since brain atrophy during aging is strongly associated with both cognitive decline and sleep disorder, we evaluated the efficacy of MMFS-01 in its ability to reverse cognitive impairment and improve sleep.

    METHODS: We conducted a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel-designed trial in older adult subjects (age 50-70) with cognitive impairment. Subjects were treated with MMFS-01 (n = 23) or placebo (n = 21) for 12 weeks and cognitive ability, sleep quality, and emotion were evaluated. Overall cognitive ability was determined by a composite score of tests in four major cognitive domains.

    RESULTS: With MMFS-01 treatment, overall cognitive ability improved significantly relative to placebo (p = 0.003; Cohen's d = 0.91). Cognitive fluctuation was also reduced. The study population had more severe executive function deficits than age-matched controls from normative data and MMFS-01 treatment nearly restored their impaired executive function, demonstrating that MMFS-01 may be clinically significant. Due to the strong placebo effects on sleep and anxiety, the effects of MMFS-01 on sleep and anxiety could not be determined.

    CONCLUSIONS: The current study demonstrates the potential of MMFS-01 for treating cognitive impairment in older adults.
Note: MMFS-01 = magnesium threonate.

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by ElliotB » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:47 pm

I have spent a lot of time today researching Palmitoylethanolamide (PEA) and found this interesting article from a company I order supplements from titled "Break-the-Cycle-of-Chronic-Pain".

https://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/ ... in/Page-01

and may be trying their ComfortMAX product which includes PEA and Honokiol (Honokiol is from Magnolia Bark and is supposed to promotes cellular health & a healthy mood). Who knows? Very inexpensive to try. You can read about their ComfortMAX PEA product here:

https://www.lifeextension.com/Vitamins- ... ComfortMAX

Available now for just $22 for a month's supply of capsules 60 capsules if you use the code "GIFTS" at checkout. For this type of product, this is an excellent value for 1200mg of PEA. The product I linked to above has about 1/2 the dosage of PEA and costs almost twice as much. The only downside is there are 'fillers' in the formulation. Pharmaceutical grade (no fillers) competitive products are available.
Last edited by ElliotB on Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Constellation of symptoms

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:11 pm

re MMFS - i'll wait to see how it stacks up against other high quality mag products and not just vs placebo.

sort of from the fft (one way or another, from xp likely will require an extra (tracked..?) move to get to disclosures)
  • "Disclosures
    Guosong Liu
    Equity:
    I am founder of Neurocentria and own some stocks of Neurocentria.
    Sponsors:
    I am CSO of Neurocentria, the company who sponsor the study.
    Patents/Royalties
    I am co-inventor of the patents the lead to development of MMFS-1 used in the current study."
ps. i just realized i've been missing a search term all this time:

Bioavailability of magnesium diglycinate vs magnesium oxide in patients with ileal resection (1994)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7815675

1994 sheesh.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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