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Re: B12 question

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:09 pm
by LilliThree
The estimation of “close to immediately” is my own. Product info https://prlabs.com/liquid-zinc-assay.html
Can you link to the research you mention?

No, I’ve not had problems with acid reflux taking the magnesium at night.

Re: B12 question

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:25 pm
by jimmylegs
ok thanks for the link.
i note from the product lit that "if a ... delay in taste perception occurs, it may indicate a zinc deficiency."
here's the research link.
http://www.ijpp.com/IJPP%20archives/199 ... 18-322.pdf
would you give yourself a 2 per the table on p319? (i don't know whether or how much the different research context and zinc assay product would affect the response).
could be worth either having a serum or plasma zinc test done, and pushing it higher if needed (targeting high normal). or just boosting zinc rich foods in diet until you can make your taste test product register immediately as nasty ;)

good to hear the mag hasn't given you any grief. fwiw i didn't know it was acid reflux for ages. just had this brutal chronic cough and it turned out to be acid reflux. when the doc gave me a flyer it said to avoid things that relax the lower oesophageal sphincter and that's when the light went on FINALLY.

Re: B12 question

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:32 am
by LilliThree
Thanks for that info, JL. I’m going to test it again with my husband timing it so it’s less subjective.

That’s interesting about your cough. There’s so much to know, so much to learn! And it’s like every individual body has it’s own manual but it’s only revealed a bit at a time. Overwhelming and frustrating but, also, amazing. :-/

Re: B12 question

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:19 pm
by jimmylegs
no worries. i'll be interested to hear the results :)
yeah the cough was messed up. the techs at the hosp said they'd never heard one that bad before. i'm so special yay :S lol

Re: B12 question

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:18 am
by LilliThree
Ok, my husband tested me at registering the taste at 3 seconds. It never really got nasty for me. It was a strong taste but I kept waiting for it to get horrid, which it didn’t. That seems like a subjective opinion. But I’m going to focus on zinc rich foods for awhile and see if it changes. I do eat eggs regularly and shellfish but I can up my game with nuts and seeds and garbanzo beans. And dark chocolate.

I hear you about being special. ;-)

Re: B12 question

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:19 pm
by jimmylegs
ok sounds like a good plan. fwiw i don't know if your shellfish routine includes oysters, but for zinc they blow all other shellfish out of the figurative water.
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/nutrients/ ... easureby=m
here's a recipe that's meant to be used once a week. balances shellfish sources of zinc and iron.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=recipe&dbid=32
i wish i was not such a wuss about shellfish or i would make that recipe - am a big soup fan.
as it is i'm still polishing my halo over having my first three oysters ever, this past january i think it was... time for some more! might have a full serving (6) next time ;)

Re: B12 question

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:37 pm
by LilliThree
Oh, yum! That soup looks great! Have to used canned, though, because I can’t get fresh anything seafood where I live. I like soup, too. I’m a fan of bowl-y foods. :-)

Thanks for the info on the oysters. I don’t eat them much because they have to be canned and that’s not as tasty as fresh. But I can up those quantities for zinc purposes.

Did you enjoy your oysters?

Re: B12 question

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:23 pm
by jimmylegs
i did, but i REALLY enjoyed the half a veggie wrap i had with them. pretty bummed about reports they've since taken that off the menu :( but i will go back for some more oysters. they have a 'buck a shuck' special every afternoon at a place near here. in the meantime i just take a 50mg zinc pill monday thru friday. not quite as exciting hehe

Re: B12 question

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:25 am
by NHE
When you eat shellfish, you're likely eating microplastics.

Guess What's Showing Up In Our Shellfish? One Word: Plastics
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... d-plastics

Re: B12 question

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:24 am
by jimmylegs
when you eat anything you're likely eating microplastics

Low levels of microplastics (MP) in wild mussels indicate that MP ingestion by humans is minimal compared to exposure via household fibres fallout during a meal (2018)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9117344445

breathing is also a concern

Airborne microplastics: Consequences to human health? (2018)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9117307686

Re: B12 question

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:11 am
by LilliThree
Ugh. Plastic. Even in the air we breathe.

I envy your buck a shuck situ. Sorry about the veggie wrap. :-(

So I have two people scouting for dietitians for me and an appt with a neurologist in June. In the meantime, I’m just going to continue working on making sure I’ve got basics covered. Where have you learned about when and how to take your supplements to best effect? I’ve never taken a multi-vitamin but considering it. Any suggestions on that?

I really appreciate the input from you, BL and NHE. This limbo place is uncomfortable, to put it mildly. In the meantime, I am interested in taking the best care I can of myself whatever the case.

Re: B12 question

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:57 am
by NHE
LilliThree wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:11 am
This limbo place is uncomfortable, to put it mildly. In the meantime, I am interested in taking the best care I can of myself whatever the case.
LilliThree wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:25 pm
I didn't have a chance to look at it again before my appointment today but I did take the blood test list that you suggested and I'm scheduled to go back next week after I've had a 72 hour clear out of supplements.
Have you had the blood tests yet? Do you have the results?

Re: B12 question

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:31 am
by LilliThree
I have had the blood tests but results aren’t back yet.

Re: B12 question

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:00 pm
by jimmylegs
that is great that your network is helping out with the dietitian quest, hope there's success soon.

as for supplements, i basically read alot. trial and error over time. in the earliest days i knew b12 wasn't doing the trick on its own any more, so i started branching out to b complex. at some point i had some weird reaction and learned for the first time about niacin as opposed to niacinamide, and the niacin flush.

after a ton of reading i basically combined the advice of the most logical sounding of widely divergent available protocols and over time tweaked them based on feasibility, relevant updates to the science, and personal reactions.

i made a couple of appointments with a naturopathic doctor. among other things, nd says avoid eggs. my back story, extremely strict vegan. so in the spirit of changing the chronic status quo that got me into trouble in the first place, avoiding eggs makes zero sense. so i don't follow that advice, and keep reading.

contrast the klenner protocol which says high protein diet with 2-3 eggs for breakfast. i go for the protein via klenner and have eggs for the first time in a decade and a half.

now moving past diet, klenner is weird bc he's all about injections. for me, it's not gonna happen. so for his stuff i adapt and use pills instead.

klenner also includes a ton of b vitamins and actually prescribes the niacin flush. the flush makes a ton of sense to me at the time, based on increasing nutrient delivery to starved tissues. they were starved and then some.

then i realize that being a 1970s vintage protocol, it's probably a good idea to embrace more recent science. so i add the completely absent vitamin D3, and choose a better quality vitamin e. (and i don't think i gave the vit e near enough credit at the time)

the details are super overwhelming in those early days, so i kind of ignore parts of it (mostly the minerals part), and probably shouldn't have. good ol hindsight.

overall however, for the modified klenner approach, amazing (if imperfect) results in record time.

i learn that low uric acid is a thing for ms patients and have it tested. 'normal'. then i read about the average level for ms patients and i'm literally exactly the average. so then for years i struggle to address that, aiming for high normal status, via high purine foods. monumentally stupid.

then i finally tease out a link between zinc and uric acid, ask the doc to test zinc status, i'm deficient. so the whole time my body was not handling purine properly, as reflected by low uric acid, i was probably flooding my brain with ammonia. so healthy.

to fix the deficient zinc, doc says take 100mg per day for a month. 100mg makes me nauseous so i kind of screw that up until the doc says well then try taking 50 morning and 50 evening. which does bring levels up nicely without nausea. and the uric acid comes obediently along for the ride. finally!

at some point i run into issues with d3 overdose (usually taking 4000IU per day) and associated mag depletion. that starts the whole multi-year learning curve with magnesium doses and forms. the pharmacist tells me to increase mag and how to time it in relation to d3, but doesn't clue me in to the relative merits of different forms of mag. at first i try adhering to 'best bet diet' recommendations for magnesium, but it also does not specify forms and i'm using mag oxide. bad idea. eventually i clue in to mag citrate and then glycinate. and then i overdose on the glycinate and enter the year of the terrible cough, as previously discussed.

at the same time as i'm trying to deal with magnesium, i'm trying to get the bbd recommended intake of calcium. my back hurts which suggests to me that my kidneys object. so i dial back the calcium.

etc etc etc, and that's basically been the last 10+ yrs of my life lol

so these days i am a dedicated nutrient-dense whole food omnivore. 'eat real food, not too much, mostly (but not all) plants'. there's a main meal protein rotation thru various but kind of specific seafood, poultry, red meat and vegetarian options. so many (diverse and carefully balanced) veg. whole grains. some nuts and seeds (again the mix is carefully designed). a little dairy (eg milk/cream in hot beverages, milk on breakfast oats, some plain yogurt, limited butter/cheese). a little fruit (mostly local berries, another carefully selected array).

re supplements, if i don't use them i will still pay the price as evidenced by all the shit that hit the fan a year ago. d3 was particularly bad.
so monday thru friday i tend to use three-a-day multis of various types so i can personalize the routine as needed. eg sometimes i need to take more of the multi that has iron. other times i'll take 2/3 multi and 1/3 b complex. then i rotate in other stuff on top.
-usually all the time there's added zinc (i have three kinds to choose from, one with copper) keeping it to no more than 50mg per day weekdays for long term maintenance.
-also vit c no more than 500mg at a time and usually no more than 1000mg per day.
-last week there was also a daily e8 complex in the mix. this week i'm working in more omega 3s.
-i work on selenium via the brazil nuts in my daily morning snack - 1/4c salty sweet roasted trail mix.
-vit d3 is just for weekends atm. i had it up to 166nmol/l at last test, so am taking it a bit easier and based on where i live, as of this month will self-prescribe regular sunshine time until oct.

clear as mud right!?!

Re: B12 question

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:43 pm
by LilliThree
Oh, wow. Mind-boggling, JL. No wonder it took so long to get it worked out. If only we had our own personal owner's manual from the get-go, right? I honestly don't know if I have the mental aptitude for all of this. There's just so much.

It's particularly interesting to me how you rotate the multis. Do you do it that way so as not to be be overloading on any one thing in particular?