herbals

[LP]

"Cacao is very iron rich and clearly modulates the immune system in ways which may very well not be beneficial to people with MS."

I have MS myself and was diagnosed with low iron and ferritin levels last month despite the fact that I eat a lot of organic food rich in iron (oranges, lentils, liver all combined in one meal). I have noticed that after eating such a food, I have bad leg cramps at night. I'm wondering whether
eating iron rich food in good or not for people with MS. Could you enlight me on this one please?

Thank you,

LP

[jimmylegs]

hey there LP

personally i think when you're low in iron, you should work to correct it, but should not do so indiscriminately without considering some other variables. in ms there is a large camp concerned with iron levels but it's a complex subject. just from what you wrote i think a few things are coming into play.

first, about interactions between iron and magnesium:
on the face of it and only from my perspective, you could be taking in iron to the detriment of your magnesium absorption resulting in nightly leg cramps.

second, about interactions between iron and zinc:
if you are consuming tons of iron and it's just not showing up in your blood, are you excreting it, or is it being mishandled in some way?

i suspect, and i'm no professional by any stretch, that as an MS patient your zinc levels are down. (and by the way if you are low in zinc, it may have affected your uric acid and D3 status among other things also typically found to be low in MS patients).

iron competes with zinc for absorption. so i would say that with a high iron diet, you could be driving your zinc status down even further (taking your uric acid and D3 status along for the ride) - and i don't think that would be any good for an MS patient.

supplementing zinc and iron is complex. let's say you're anemic - if you supplement ONLY iron you can effectively improve your anemia, at the expense of your zinc status. likewise by supplementing zinc to correct deficiency, you can drive your iron levels down. folks that are low in both nutrients and who then supplement both nutrients see increases in both. so it's a balancing act. here's the abstract: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/49/1/145

with the above in mind, some things to consider:

liver has both iron and zinc to offer. if you eat it by itself, your status in both nutrients should improve.

if you eat oranges with that liver in the same meal, that will increase the iron absorption, possibly to the detriment of zinc absorption.

if you now add lentils to the plate in that same meal, the high level of phytates present in lentils can bind up the zinc, and your zinc absorption decreases further (same thing happens with cereals and other high phytate foods.. and magnesium is also driven down by phytates - here come the leg cramps).

so starting again, if we put the liver on the plate it has a balance of zinc and iron.

if we add oranges to the plate we boost the C and help the iron.

now instead of adding lentils let's add crimini mushrooms instead, you add no vitamin C to the mix, and 1mg of zinc, plus some beneficial potassium and selenium..

then add a cup of boiled spinach or swiss chard (phytates in greens can be reduced by boiling), and you get a nice mix of high magnesium, zinc and iron.

the balanced intake of zinc and iron with lower impact from phytates should improve your iron status in step with zinc status, and then your uric acid and D3 and whatever else can benefit also.

there's no reason to completely avoid high phytates in foods.. all you have to do is be careful and balance it out over time, and figure out which ways there are to mitigate phytate levels in foods (such as choosing sprouted grain breads etc)

it's all just conjecture from a non-pro, but that's what i got for ya.

by the way, cacao is rich not only in iron, but in magnesium and zinc as well a nice square of 70% cacao dark chocolate should do you no harm

[LP]

Thank you for your kind and excellent reply. I have read it several times over, and I understand the balance of nutrients intake, to which I will pay a lot of attention from now on.

I have one question: could you possibly expand on the relationship between magnesium and nightly leg cramps.

Thank you very much.

[jimmylegs]

you're welcome

all right.

nerves and muscles are controlled by electrical signals in your body.

for example potassium channels and sodium channels work to control the polarization of the axons in nerves.. and by switching that polarization in a sequence along a nerve, that's how messages are sent from a to b.

then in muscle fibre, you have calcium channels. when smooth muscle like that in your legs is depolarized, calcium enters the cells and after another complicated series of biochemical events, the cell contracts.

magnesium is a calcium channel blocker which prevents calcium ions from entering smooth muscle cells, allowing them to expand and relax. if you don't have enough magnesium in your system, the uninterrupted flow of calcium into smooth muscle cells sends a continuous cell contraction signal - yay, leg cramps.

check out the awesome animations in this post from 2009:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-73765.html#73765

i was focused on sodium and potassium channels at the time.

i just found an animation about the function of the calcium channel (this is the complicated series of events i mentioned above)
shortened URL

unfortunately i can't find video about how magnesium blocks the calcium channel, but wikipedia has a decent text description:

Ligand ion channel blockade
Magnesium ions (Mg2+) in cellular biology are usually in almost all senses opposite to Ca2+ ions, because they are bivalent too, but have greater electronegativity and thus hold on to water molecules stronger, preventing passage through the channel (even though magnesium is smaller). Thus Mg2+ ions block Ca2+ channels (NMDA channels) for example, etc.

if you want to try a magnesium supplement get an 'albion chelated' magnesium glycinate product. others will give you the runs if you take in the needed quantities. i couldn't get my usual brand of mag glycinate the last time i shopped and had to get magnesium bisglycinate. i don't think it's as good but i'm still evaluating it

HTH
jimmylegs

[bananana]

Does anyone here take Evening Primrose Oil? I've read some claims that it works wonders for MS patients. Its kind of pricey, so I'd like to know if anyone's had any positive experiences with it before I fork out the cash... Thanks!!

[jimmylegs]

i'd say don't bother. it's an omega 6 fatty acid - you'd be better off with omega 3. pricy still but fish oil gets my vote.

you still have to make sure you get enough omega 6 but i think people generally do, unless i'm painting the world with me-coloured glasses by saying so..?

[NHE]

i'd say don't bother. it's an omega 6 fatty acid - you'd be better off with omega 3. pricy still but fish oil gets my vote.

you still have to make sure you get enough omega 6 but i think people generally do, unless i'm painting the world with me-coloured glasses by saying so..?

There is one omega-6 that is of benefit which is not usually found in our diet. That's gamma-lenolenic acid (GLA) which is found in borage oil and also in evening primrose oil (EPO). If I remember correctly, the GLA content in borage oil is higher than in EPO. Here are a couple of papers on GLA...

• gamma-Linolenic acid treatment of rheumatoid arthritis. A randomized, placebo-controlled trial.
  http://tinyurl.com/r6h89w
  
  Polyunsaturated fatty acids in the pathogenesis and treatment of multiple sclerosis.
  http://tinyurl.com/n58k69
  
  Polyunsaturated fatty acid supplementation stimulates differentiation of oligodendroglia cells.
  http://tinyurl.com/oqbtfq

NHE

[jimmylegs]

from world's healthiest foods site:

Linoleic acid is an omega-6 fatty acid which is plentiful in the diet of most Americans. This fat is found in at high levels in oils from grains, nuts and legumes, and is often provided in your diet by sunflower, safflower, sesame, corn, soy, and peanut oils. In the body, linoleic acid is first converted to another omega-6 fat called gamma-linolenic acid, which is also found in evening primrose oil and borage oil.

[bananana]

Thanks for all the info!!

[popsie]

I find green tea (any tea) acts like a diuretic. I stay away from it. I like the sound of vinpocetinre & will give it a try. Thanks Jack

[jackD]

It is cheap and I take 10 mg three times a day.

jackD

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2010 May 25;107(21):9795-800. Epub 2010 May 6.

Vinpocetine inhibits NF-kappaB-dependent inflammation via an IKK-dependent but PDE-independent mechanism.
Jeon KI, Xu X, Aizawa T, Lim JH, Jono H, Kwon DS, Abe J, Berk BC, Li JD, Yan C.

Aab Cardiovascular Research Institute and Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.

Comment in:

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A.

2010 Jun 1;107(22):9921-2.

Abstract
Inflammation is a hallmark of many diseases, such as atherosclerosis, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, arthritis, infectious diseases, and cancer.

Although steroids and cyclooxygenase inhibitors are effective antiinflammatory therapeutical agents, they may cause serious side effects.

Therefore, developing unique antiinflammatory agents without significant adverse effects is urgently needed.

Vinpocetine, a derivative of the alkaloid vincamine, has long been used for cerebrovascular disorders and cognitive impairment.

Its role in inhibiting inflammation, however, remains unexplored. Here, we show that vinpocetine acts as an antiinflammatory agent in vitro and in vivo.

In particular, vinpocetine inhibits TNF-alpha-induced NF-kappaB activation and the subsequent induction of proinflammatory mediators in multiple cell types, including vascular smooth muscle cells, endothelial cells, macrophages, and epithelial cells.

We also show that vinpocetine inhibits monocyte adhesion and chemotaxis, which are critical processes during inflammation.

Moreover, vinpocetine potently inhibits TNF-alpha- or LPS-induced up-regulation of proinflammatory mediators, including TNF-alpha, IL-1beta, and macrophage inflammatory protein-2, and decreases interstitial infiltration of polymorphonuclear leukocytes in a mouse model of TNF-alpha- or LPS-induced lung inflammation.

Interestingly, vinpocetine inhibits NF-kappaB-dependent inflammatory responses by directly targeting IKK, independent of its well-known inhibitory effects on phosphodiesterase and Ca(2+) regulation.

These studies thus identify vinpocetine as a unique antiinflammatory agent that may be repositioned for the treatment of many inflammatory diseases.

PMID: 20448200 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]PMCID: PMC2906898 [Available on 2010/11/

[Anntrenton]

Drinking four or more cups of tea every day could be more beneficial than drinking water. They say that tea not only rehydrates you as well as water does, but it can also offer protection against heart disease and cancer. It is commonly thought that drinking tea leads to loss of fluid and may lead to dehydration. But according to researchers, the water in the tea can actually help replenish fluids in the body.

[Bender]

I'm recently diagnosed, and both my neuro and the MS specialist agree that I've probably had MS for some time. I'm also a heavy Marijuana user in spite of having quit all other drugs (including Cigarettes) about 6 years ago. When I tried quitting weed I actually felt worse afterwards, (primarily in that I would get tired, achy, and overly emotional... sounds familiar right)

Basically, do people actually think the information is there to say that the weed is helpful with MS. I've seen some thing saying that it's good for the blehness (as I've come to name the way I feel in general which according to my docs is related to the ms) and that it helps the brain recover from outbreaks, but I've seen other stuff basically calling BS by saying not enough is known.

Basically, what's the deal? Is it worth actually pursuing medically?

[lyndacarol]

Bender – My ideas on this subject are unique to me; you must consider what is best for your situation. Try to collect legitimate information before you make your decision.

I currently believe that anything that causes increased inflammation and mucus (and that includes smoking of any kind or exposure to any air pollution) results in excess insulin secretion, which – in my opinion – is fundamental to MS.

Remember, these are MY ideas. And these ideas are definitely unconventional!

[NHE]

I have recently read that capsaicin cream is recommended for pain due to diabetic neuropathy. I was wondering if anyone has tried this for neuropathic pain due to MS? I would love to get rid of the pain in my foot. I've had it now for the last 11 years. Any other suggestions would also be appreciated. I know that some people take neurontin which is gabapentin, but I was also wondering if anyone has tried gaba (gamma amino butyric acid) which is available as a supplement?

Thanks, NHE