CCSVI and CCVBP

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:57 pm

Hello Nigel and Silver,
The masseuse most likey hit myofascial "trigger points." They are typically located in characteristic spots in muscles. When pressed or massaged they can trigger a twitch like irritation that spreads out in particular patterns. Janet Travell MD wrote two excellent books on myofascial syndromes (trigger points) regarding their symptoms, diagnosis and treatment. Trigger points are found in nearly all types of musculoskeletal problems and MS causes problems with muscle weakness and imbalances. I used trigger points more for diagnosis than treatment, as well as and for post checks following treatment to guage improvement. Using trigger points effectively requires a thorough understanding of muscles.

silverbirch · Post by **silverbirch** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:53 am

NZer1 wrote:Interesting, I have had the same experience where massage will make symptoms worse which wears off after a day or three.
I have had this happen from deep tissue massage of spine areas and I no longer have massages because of the effect.

NZer1 after my first massage my thoughts was never to have a massage again... I felt like I had been battered then pain went away
Three days after this battering I had an appointment with my Upper Cervical ( Dr Heidi) she said massage must have been very deep I relayed this to chrio and my 2nd massage the other day left me feeling good he never went deep.

The other piece of advice from Upper cervical Doc - wow the brain must have been flooded and the deep massage was like me doing a long hard work out releasing lots of fluid to brain.

I will be haveing another massage my 3rd Ill keep you posted

Maybe have another go

silverbirch · Post by **silverbirch** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:07 am

uprightdoc wrote:Hello Nigel and Silver,
The masseuse most likey hit myofascial "trigger points." They are typically located in characteristic spots in muscles. When pressed or massaged they can trigger a twitch like irritation that spreads out in particular patterns. Janet Travell MD wrote two excellent books on myofascial syndromes (trigger points) regarding their symptoms, diagnosis and treatment. Trigger points are found in nearly all types of musculoskeletal problems and MS causes problems with muscle weakness and imbalances. I used trigger points more for diagnosis than treatment, as well as and for post checks following treatment to guage improvement. Using trigger points effectively requires a thorough understanding of muscles.

Hey Doc

At my second massage he was pointing out trigger points and pressing showing me (educateing me if you like ...) he also found a lump on my lower right he did say its location he asked me did I ever have a back xray or did I ever crack a bone and maybe there was more to the car crash I had 20 yers ago .... the lump or area he is refering to has always played up on long car drives
since my attack the same discomfort comes now when Ironing never did before!!

He said my spine was perfect and how many attacks did I have ? Ive had 1 then got DX he thought that it required 2 attacks and what was my other symptoms - I dont have fatigue or migraines since the attack and since ccsvi no sweats or fuzzyness the little bit I had since attack although I do question my recall. What I think sealed my DX was a lesion I had behind my righ eye but Ive had migraines Right eye well since car crashso a lesion behind there would not surprise me plus I took alot of migraine tabs

silverbirch · Post by **silverbirch** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:12 am

uprightdoc wrote: I used trigger points more for diagnosis than treatment, as well as and for post checks following treatment to guage improvement. Using trigger points effectively requires a thorough understanding of muscles.

Would you suggest that we carry on going for massage ?
Will and how they benefit us ?
Would you suggest they keep away from trigger points ?

Sorry lots of questions xxxxx

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:58 am

There are many theories as to the cause of trigger points. The most likely cause is decreased blood flow called ischemia due to excess muscle tone (tightness). Massage is good for relieving tension and moving blood flow but it shouldn't be abusive to where it triggers a bad reaction. There are many types of therapeutic soft tissue work under the umbrella of massage. Discuss with chiropractor and masseuse which is best for you. Getting your spine aligned as best as possible should significantly reduce trigger points.

IHateMS · Post by **IHateMS** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:27 pm

am only a third of the way through this thread....

i have a question.... thoughts on the mackenzie method of back/spinal adjustment?

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:09 am

IHateMS wrote: i have a question.... thoughts on the mackenzie method of back/spinal adjustment?

I am somewhat familiar with the MaKenzie method but I never used it. It takes far too long to make corrections and requires significant patient compliance in doing specific rehab exercises in order to be effective.

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:35 am

silverbirch wrote: At my second massage he was pointing out trigger points and pressing showing me (educateing me if you like ...) he also found a lump on my lower right he did say its location he asked me did I ever have a back xray or did I ever crack a bone and maybe there was more to the car crash I had 20 yers ago .... the lump or area he is refering to has always played up on long car drives
since my attack the same discomfort comes now when Ironing never did before!!

He said my spine was perfect and how many attacks did I have ? Ive had 1 then got DX he thought that it required 2 attacks and what was my other symptoms - I dont have fatigue or migraines since the attack and since ccsvi no sweats or fuzzyness the little bit I had since attack although I do question my recall. What I think sealed my DX was a lesion I had behind my righ eye but Ive had migraines Right eye well since car crashso a lesion behind there would not surprise me plus I took alot of migraine tabs

Hello Silverbirch,
An active trigger point in the gluteal, piraformis or tensor fascia lata muscles may be a sign of low back problems, which is further supported by the fact that it bothers you on long car rides.

As I have mentioned before, there is a correlation between migraine headaches and MS and both conditions can affect the eye. You fall in that gray area between possible MS and migraines.

NZer1 · Post by **NZer1** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:44 pm

Quote Dr F.
"As I have mentioned before, there is a correlation between migraine headaches and MS and both conditions can affect the eye. You fall in that gray area between possible MS and migraines."
I am in that category as well and suspect that CSF pressure or lack of it is the cause in my case. I am booked to see my GP on Friday to update him on my whole situation.
The headaches and eye problems have been effected by the adjustments that were done and have been lessened by increasing the Gabapentin that I am on for TN. Reason?
Its all getting confusing. I think by starting with my GP who is very good and planning a multi-focused approach to dx the issues is going to be best.
If John is not confident that my Atlas can be corrected and there are no others in NZ, I am thinking that xrays and MRI will be a starting point to understand what is going on.
I plan to ask for a referral to the Neuro so my dx of probable MS from 2 plus years ago can be re visited.
Regards Nigel.

NZer1 · Post by **NZer1** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:21 pm

Drs, could you please help me with some insights that I can ask my GP for his opinion and direction for tests to clarify what is possibly happening. For instance my spine alignment and possible problems arising.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=5 ... 1636357984
Any thing that needs further testing for example headaches, feeling faint after being bent over, weakness in general but mostly limbs after exertion, tingling and crawling feelings in limbs, cognitive issues and confusion, short term memory losses, bladder frequency, difficulty holding good posture due to weakness, vertigo when turning my head if I am moving/ easy to loose balance, vision changes (mostly from slow signal to right eye VEP test) but difficulty seeing clearly especially when feeling hot, heat intolerance, Trigeminal Neuralgia, MS hug and loss of feeling in parts of torso, symptoms wax and wane and the pain feelings eg in legs and feet fluctuate when I try and focus to describe the feeling guessing it is nerve conduction issues, general aches and pains in middle and upper back (not MS I think?), Fatigue that requires me to sleep for at least 3 hours in the afternoon and in bed by 8.30-9.00 pm low energy in general afternoons and evenings, feet and hands are having sensory problems and slow sensing back to my brain hence walking difficulty, wobbly walk with the feeling my feet are like balls and difficult to balance, can only walk slowish not able to run or I fall over. And a possible red herring, when I had a lumbar punch I had severe heads for six weeks the only way I could get relief was to lie down, they said the pressure was OK when they did the test, although I am doubtful after the number of attempts and two people tried eventually when they got though I nearly jumped off the bed and there was a loud pop sound!

I'm at a loss what to ask for from my GP, it seems to me to be that many of my issues could be from the lesion at C2 which may have worsened or further lesions have formed. Possible CSF flow issues?
My progression is slow and since I have my diet and exercise plus rest time more under control the progression is slower than at the start of my symptoms developing.
The adjustments from John generally had a negative effect worsening my symptoms and after a day or two things would begin to settle. I am aware my neck is out by the way it feels at the moment.
Any help is greatly appreciated,
regards Nigel.

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:10 am

NZer1 wrote:Drs, could you please help me with some insights that I can ask my GP for his opinion and direction for tests to clarify what is possibly happening. For instance my spine alignment and possible problems arising.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=5 ... 1636357984
Any thing that needs further testing for example headaches, feeling faint after being bent over, weakness in general but mostly limbs after exertion, tingling and crawling feelings in limbs, cognitive issues and confusion, short term memory losses, bladder frequency, difficulty holding good posture due to weakness, vertigo when turning my head if I am moving/ easy to loose balance, vision changes (mostly from slow signal to right eye VEP test) but difficulty seeing clearly especially when feeling hot, heat intolerance, Trigeminal Neuralgia, MS hug and loss of feeling in parts of torso, symptoms wax and wane and the pain feelings eg in legs and feet fluctuate when I try and focus to describe the feeling guessing it is nerve conduction issues, general aches and pains in middle and upper back (not MS I think?), Fatigue that requires me to sleep for at least 3 hours in the afternoon and in bed by 8.30-9.00 pm low energy in general afternoons and evenings, feet and hands are having sensory problems and slow sensing back to my brain hence walking difficulty, wobbly walk with the feeling my feet are like balls and difficult to balance, can only walk slowish not able to run or I fall over. And a possible red herring, when I had a lumbar punch I had severe heads for six weeks the only way I could get relief was to lie down, they said the pressure was OK when they did the test, although I am doubtful after the number of attempts and two people tried eventually when they got though I nearly jumped off the bed and there was a loud pop sound!

Hello Nigel,
The lateral (side view) of your cervical spine is the most telltale sign. You have lost the normal C curve in your neck which is now straight. It is also tilted and putting your head far forward of the perpendicular posture line. Conversely, your head is tilted backwards in extension. Aside from that you do have some mild degenerative changes in your spine but for the most part your bones and cartilage are in good shape. You also have a history of severe football trauma and chronic occupational traumas.

A flexion malposition of the cervical spine such as yours pulls the belly side (ventral) of the brainstem toward the base of the skull, called the clivus, which can directly compress the brainstem. In other cases it can impinge cerebrospinal fluid in the cisterns that surround important areas and nerves of the brainstem and compress them. The outcomes is the same in both cases. One of the nerves that is susceptible to compression is the trigeminal nerve. I started with optic neuritis but I will discussing other cranial nerves signs such as trigeminal neuralgia on my new website soon. The vertebral-basilar artery which supplies the brainstem and cerebellum also lie along the clivus so blood flow to the most important areas of the brain is decreased resulting in fatigue, cog fog, loss of balance and coordination and difficulty walking. The long sensory and motor tracts of the cord are also affected causign weakness and paraesthesis in the extremities. Lastly the blood flow to the cord especially the cervical cord, where you have lesions, is affected. The MS hug and bladder frequency are sures signs of brainstem pressure. On top of all of that, as I recall you have low blood pressure, which makes matters worse, hence the dizziness while bending over.

The best thing for you for examination purposes would be Dr. Haake's protocol of baseline studies that include MR, MRA, MRV and duplex ultrasound scans of your blood vessels.

NZer1 · Post by **NZer1** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:40 am

Thanks Dr. I was at a loss as to how I could present things to my GP without sounding like a person that spends too much time on the web, which I do!
Regards Nigel.

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:03 pm

Nigel,
Also discuss with your doctor about getting Doppler or Duplex Ultrasound scans of your neck and intracranial arteries and veins. Some of your chief signs and symptoms may be due to vertebral-basilar artery insufficency.

costumenastional · Post by **costumenastional** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:27 am

Hello all. I figured it would be safe for me to report after nearly 5 months of receiving chiropractic care by Dr Michael Koontz.

So, I have NOT progressed. That's for sure. And I was progressing rapidly. There are a few new symptoms on the right side of my body like right eye twitching and my right knee going numb from time to time. Nothing major but still noticeable. I think of it as my right side being affected by the adjustments I have received since it was my left one mostly affected. Maybe there is a shift while my body is trying to get what's happening.
It would not be logical for some things to get worse when everything else is getting better because:
Prior to upper cervical chiropractic adjustments I was losing it fast. My legs were getting weak, my hands were in deep shit and I will not even try to describe my brain issues.
My famous “poisoned brain syndrome” is almost gone. I remember being in Tokuda, right after the ”liberation” treatment. Man…I couldn’t speak, not even focus on something. My brain was melted. I am just saying this because all my hopes were dashed back then and I remember exactly how I was. Nothing against the treatment, it just wasn’t for me.
I am now much much better and my bad days are way less than before, they usually occur when I don’t get much sleep. My head is almost clear most of the time (my left eye being in a very bad shape wont let me enjoy the full effect of my recuperation anyway), my speach is better, my hands work and my legs progression has been halted (right on time I might add since we caught it in the beginning). I am not perfect and some of the damage is here to stay but I believe there is some improvement overall. It is happening very slowly but I am convinced that IT IS happening.
I don’t have a clue what the future will bring. Sometimes it feels like something very bad has began, something that cannot be stopped just like that. Especially when I have a bad day.
Ten years of sustained brain and nerve trauma is a bitch. But it is clear enough that chiropractic is my main hope and if this doesn’t work as expected, there is always surgery.

All I want to say here is that upper cervical misalignments can and do trigger serious neurological conditions. I would also suggest to anyone with serious cervical subluxations to be patient. Patience is a key virtue in situations like this and I for one will stick with cervical spinal health for as long as I live. I would marry Dr Koontz if I could but we are both men and he is already married so I ll take what I can get.

Some chiropractics tend to believe that spinal cord issues are responsible for virtually everything or so they tell their patients. This is obviously not the case. Make sure that the doctor under whose care you are is for real and don’t forget that even when some kind of trauma triggered your problems it doesn’t necessarily mean that everything will just heal. Be patient , pray to God and hope at least for stabilization. Some of our cases are clearly spinal while others aren’t.

I would like to summarize like this: I am not taking any kind of drug, I am not paying a fortune to a bunch of useless clowns (you may know them as neurologists) and I am not reading about Multiple Sclerosis any more. Still, I am stable with a trend to improvement. How is that for a change?
Some of you may find it difficult to read Dr Flanagan’s posts in here, his site or his blog. But trust me when I say that he knows what he is talking about. Unfortunately, the human body is more complex than he will ever know (or anyone else on that matter) and each one of us is a totally unique case but he is on the right track. It is worth the trouble to check your upper cervical spinal cord no matter what.

By the way, I wrote a track which I d like to dedicate to my personal miracle maker. Dr Flanagan. Dear Doctor, enjoy. It’s ok, it’s not trance nor techno

ps: the pain I had in the back of my head is also gone for good and of course my neck feels better.
I will update as soon as something changes, hopefuly for the better.

uprightdoc · Post by **uprightdoc** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:50 am

Hello Beethovan,
Thanks for the update and very nice sound track. Actually, I like your techno and trance music.

No one has all the answers, but we are getting close and chiropractic is clearly part of the solution. The challenge will be in getting all the professionals to work together for the benefit of the patient. I am honored to have been of service to you.