Theoretical Immunology

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:13 am

Algis wrote:Did you (or do you know anyone who) tried metformin in any form or dosage and did you (or do you know anyone who) see any "changes" (not even improvements or worse) in their disease/symptoms?

If yes: what dosage and what symptoms.

If not: I can start metformin in a 500mg a day as a test - After consult with relevant physicians - If it seems to be a road to exploit.

Algis, I do not have any answers to your questions. And I would not start take medication on the basis of what I have said here. I would rather like to see the medical community picks up on this, and starts rapildy with controlled trials, possibly with the help of the pharmaceutical industry who may also have an interest here. I guess the Berlin experiment with Alzheimer patients taking Metformin could be a useful experience to get something going in this field as well.
Leo

Algis · Post by **Algis** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:03 am

Thanks not answering but I understand.

Medical community 'might' pick it it up; but most likely not; as any other opinion than the general or tendency's flow. I definitely have no pharm backup nor advanced medical knowledge. But I'm a good guinea pig and metformin really look like a candy compared to mitoxantrone and methotrexate; to which I have been intensively exposed with mitigated results.

Therefore I'll see with my friend who is a good toxicologist if that is an exploitable way for me

Thank you for your work.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:46 am

In a posting above, I suggested that Metformin could help us to overcome MS.

This is a link to a report on the German TV of last Sunday about the possibility that Metformin could be a very effective drug against Alzheimer. And guess what, it would be to improve glucose transport and prevent cells from dying.

http://www.ardmediathek.de/ard/servlet/ ... Id=6360790
The video starts after 15 seconds. May be someone could provide English subtitles. I know that some of you are really good at that.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:28 am

and the story goes on:

more evidence of the link of MS with diabetes and the possible positive effects of Metformin for treating MS:

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/ ... 5/abstract

http://www.stemnow.com/?p=73
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19494326

lyndacarol · Post by **lyndacarol** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:23 pm

In view of this suggestion of a link between Alzheimer's and insulin resistance, I cannot help but repeat information I have previously posted on this website:

1."Excess insulin" occurs in the situation of insulin resistance.

2.Dr. Dennis J. Selkoe, Harvard researcher, holds the hypothesis that Alzheimer's develops because the Insulin-Degrading Enzyme (IDE) is preferentially drawn to insulin (an elevated amount of insulin may not leave enough IDE for its secondary target of amyloid) and not to the amyloid beta, which IDE also breaks down; therefore, amyloid beta is allowed to collect in the brain, causing Alzheimer's.

It makes sense to me.

bluesky63 · Post by **bluesky63** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm

MS is supposed to be associated with "autoimmune" clustering in susceptible families -- so things like diabetes, MS, rheumatoid arthritis, Hashimoto's thyroiditis, etc. run in families. The accepted medical idea has been that some families are prone to autoimmunity. Would you see any link between these various disorders and insulin? Another condition linked to MS is bipolar -- does that have a connection to insulin? It would be interesting if the link were something other than autoimmunity. I have personally been very interested in mitochondria.

lyndacarol · Post by **lyndacarol** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:50 pm

bluesky – Without absolute proof that the "autoimmune diseases" are connected, I must side with Dr. Noel Rose who has proposed the idea of a "thread of commonality" (Lyon, you have rescued me in the past with the source; do you still have it?).

Of course, I suspect this thread is insulin. Certainly, we can explain a connection with diabetes. The nature of insulin is so irritating, so "lye-like;" I can imagine it might damage or destroy any particular cell in the body, if there was a genetic weakness there. Cells in the joints (RA), on the nerves (MS), hormone-producing cells in the thyroid (Hashimoto's or Graves' disease). I think a person could go through each of the 80+ "autoimmune diseases" listed by the American Autoimmune Related Diseases Association (AARDA) in a similar fashion. And certainly a genetic propensity could account for the observation that these "run in families." This explanation could also account for the fact that people with one "autoimmune disease" often develop a second or even third one. My mother-in-law developed RA about the age of 30; she developed Sjogren's disease later and then Ménière's disease as well. She died with Alzheimer's.

I don't know about bipolar conditions, but I believe I have read of a correlation between insulin and schizophrenia. (Sorry, don't have the source.)

I have no evidence for my suspicions; your ideas on mitochondria are every bit as valid as mine on insulin – maybe more so. Investigating and sharing ideas may lead to the answer for all of us. We must welcome every avenue of thought. The answer is out there SOMEWHERE.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:53 am

The insulin thing is not the issue by itself, it is just the consequence of something else. The issue is the hardening/calcification of the cells, of the veins, of other cells, weakening the glucose transport.

I repeat what I posted here on this thread on 30 Jan 6:11 am:

- the relation of MS and Vitamin D is well known. High Vitamin D during the time your mother was pregnant from you and your youth (in the period your cells were growing) reduces the risk for MS. The intra-cellular calcium will be lower if there was a high Vitamin D level; conversely, the intra-cellular calcium will be elevated if there was a lack of Vitamin D. Sustained elevations of intracellular calcium may inhibit insulin-target cells from sensing the brisk intracellular calcium fluxes necessary for insulin action, such as in particular glucose transport. See this recent article in the International Journal of Endocrinology:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ije/2010/351385.html

This is not junk science as some might wish to believe or seem to suggest (on other fora). This is real. And this explains also why Metformin could be such an effective medication for MS and possibly for other degenerative diseases that involve hardening/calcification and increased insulin resistance (see links above including the ARD/Alzheimer/Metformin report).

In the area of Endocrinology, it might open a new door as well. That is that MS patients when they switch from Metformin to start injecting insulin, they suffer. Because the glucose is washed away (poor hungry brain cells) and the insulin resistance will further increase (making glucose transport or at least what is left of it even more difficult).

tara97 · Post by **tara97** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:20 am

on the glucose thing i strongly urge just read the functions of cortisol on wikipedia if nothing else and correlate it with what you feel. We have an immunosupressant as its elevation prevents the proliferation of T cells through its alkalising action of moving an equal number of sodium ions in, potassium out of the cells then dumped when sensed in the kidneys along with magnsesium. it also drives down insulin, raising blood sugar. insulin unlocks the cells energy so this might account for the jittery feeling in cortisols insufficiency if a magnesium deficiency were accompanied as the electrolyte , calcium, is loading the cell. I have low blood pressure which would be a symptom of the insufficiency of cortisol. I have hypoglycemia in that when I dont eat my glucose will compensate all the way up to 200 but after I eat it drops. digestion requires cortisol which stimulates the secretion of gastric acid. I think this disruption in the digestive process could cause a b12 deficiency as well as ulcers as ulcers are caused by infection which would not occur if the stomach were sufficiently acidic. I think I do not have sufficient enough cortisol to do everything at once. so cortisol is both elevated but insufficient. so the immune system is supressed and uncontrolled at the same time. these imbalences I believe cause an atmosphere perfect for bacteria, fungus and yeast to grow at which the unharnessed compromised immune system responds. I think that with out sufficient cortisol and calcitriol (D) our pH is flapping in the wind.
I will explain that if there were something occuring in the body that were so devistating like oh say a mistep in heme synthesis like seen in porphyria, it might work its way through you and cause such imbalences. I think that in scizophrenia adrenal exhaustion does not occur cortisol levels are too high for too long. cortisol elevates the absorbtion of copper, lowering zinc. too much copper is a factor of scizophrenia. also the secretion of gastic acid to high causing the alkaline process in the small intestines to become too acidic, disrupting the b6 metabolism (also a factor in scizophrenia). who knows. I certainly dont.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:49 pm

Tara, this is not easy to understand.
let me try to find my way:
low blood pressure --> low cortisol --> high insulin --> low glucose
low blood pressure --> low cortisol --> immune system that goes uncontrolled?
somehow I feel high cholsterol and triglycerines play their role as well.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:27 am

Is the future of health care being reshaped before our very eyes?

http://www.doctors20.com/

tara97 · Post by **tara97** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:34 pm

yes. well I am not sure that my low blood pressure is due to the cortisol but I know its a symptom of low cortisol (addisons) or I also heard that the stimulation of the vagus nerve can cause low blood pressure too. I think that the MS hug is inflamation of the vagus nerve. but yes high cholesterol maybe cuz cholesterol is a precursor to hormones. I am not sure about how it works but I think that cholesterol problems can be a liver problem as when we consume cholesterol our liver should down grade its production of its own cholesterol and like wise. so if the liver cant regulate what happens? I dont know either. something to look into. also cortisol blocks the absorbtion of calcium. tracking the action of these hormones and correlating them to the others is so hard to do.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:55 am

copied from the thread on Metformin:

I have done some searching using the various search engines we have at our disposal. And indeed, I find several references about MS and Metformin, most of them concern fairly recent studies.

But all these studies seem to approach the issue from the side of suppressing the immune system or doing something with the immune system eg "the Metformin attenuated the autoimmune disease of the central nervous system in animal models of multiple sclerosis."

Now I ask myself:
Is the approach right? Is the angle right? Have they been looking into the right direction or mechanism? Or is the 60 year-old dogmatic believe in auto-immunity distorting the entire research question?

If Metformin helps the insulin to unlock the cells for glucose transport, perhaps it is the cells themselves that get more healthy, that wake up. And perhaps that is the primary mechanism. And the fact that the immune system gets more quiet (or -a view that is more wrong if you approach this from the believe of an auto-immune inflammation- is attentuated) is a just consequence of cells that are back alive and kicking putting the immune system to rest.

I wish to elaborate a bit further on the above idea that perhaps the medical world has always looked at the problem the wrong way around.

We know that substances like cortisol dampen the immune system. Cortisol also counteracts insulin. This is how it is decribed in wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol This seems to be the prevailing believe in medicin.

But perhaps the real mechanism works the other way around: that is that the immune system or whatever regulator is up there, when it sees these under-nourished cells, reduces the secretion of cortisol to raise the level of insulin which in turn would allow a better transport of glucose to the cells. Maybe this is just what the regulator inside us has learned over 700 million years of evolution.

This certainly strengthens the ccsvi / low-glucose hypothesis, e.g. see: http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-15188.html But it would also suggest that we have an immune system that is crying out for help, to nurture under-nourished cells.

And possibly, when MS further develops and the inflammation worsens, there is a point that the immune system goes over the top and can not regulate anymore. What Zamboni has shown is that there is a way back.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:47 pm

from the thread on ccsvi/a logical ending?:
quote

Jasper9 wrote:
This is a really interesting thread.

I am wondering what is the limiting factor.
- is the amount of glucose to go through the BBB limited by iron deposits to the extent that injesting additional glucose into the blood stream has no benefit?

In fact, is it logical to assume that if glucose is not absorbed correctly through the vascular system then the blood in veins may actually carry a higher sugar content than normal.

And what would be the affect of this on the endothelium? Cheerleader's endothial health report on CCSVI Alliance website says;

"Ingesting too much glucose in the form of simple sugars increases endothelial cell death and increases oxidative stress."

Is is another vicious circle?

(I'm actually hoping someone will tell me that the more glucose I have the better so I can go and eat cake! - but I don't think it will be as straightforward as that?)

unquote

you are perfectly right; and it may point to a further and stronger link to diabetes II and the glucose condition.
my farther had weakening in the legs when he was 58 years old; but never had MS.
he wad diagnosed with diabetes II around more or less the same time, started his Metformin medication and of course low sugar consumption to get his blood sugar under control.
we are now 25 years later; he is 83 years old and in good health; his weakening disappeared, at least I never heard about it anymore. his diabetes is perfectly under control with a few pills.
I had my blood sugar tested and also the fast serum insulin response to stress. things were normal or a sort of. so I do not have diabetes, at least not yet. but there is a genetic predisposition.
I think the real and underlying mechanism is the hardening/calcification of the veins. That process is underway and it is known that it starts 10 years or so before it comes to a point that the insulin can not do its work anymore. For me that will be earlier, because I had all these stenoses in the neck that limited the drainage of the cerebro-spinal and the related glucose transport and hence the glucose condition is already worse than for "normal" diabetes II patients... So for me and for some other MS patients who have diabetes II in the family, things may simply happen earlier...
thanks a lot for the thought, I do believe it is yet another important piece of the puzzle and strengthens the link with diabetes II/hardening of the veins.

concerned · Post by **concerned** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:48 pm

Is the cross-posting really necessary?