No Cerebral or Cervical Venous Insufficiency in US Veterans

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.
Cece
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No Cerebral or Cervical Venous Insufficiency in US Veterans

Post by Cece »

http://archneur.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten ... l.2011.185
ABSTRACT

Objective To determine if chronic cerebral venous insufficiency exists in patients with multiple sclerosis (MS) using ultrasonography and 4-dimensional color Doppler ultrasonography examination and unverified criteria proposed by Zamboni et al.

Design Patients with MS and clinically isolated syndrome were matched by age and sex with subjects with migraine or no neurological disease. All subjects underwent gray-scale, color, and spectral Doppler ultrasonography examination of the internal jugular veins (IJVs), vertebral veins, and deep cerebral veins for stenosis, absence of signal, and reflux.

Setting Academic MS center.

Patients All patients with MS fulfilled revised McDonald criteria for the diagnosis of MS. Patients with clinically isolated syndrome exhibited a typical transient focal neurological deficit and had magnetic resonance imaging lesions typical of MS. Control subjects were recruited from the VA migraine clinic or staff.

Main Outcome Measures Five parameters of venous outflow used by Zamboni et al were examined: (1) IJV or vertebral vein reflux, (2) deep cerebral vein reflux, (3) IJV stenosis, (4) absence of flow in IJVs or vertebral veins, and (5) change in cross-sectional area of the IJV with postural change.

Results There was no significant difference in the number and type of venous outflow abnormalities in patients with MS compared with controls.

Conclusion This study does not support the theory that chronic cerebral venous insufficiency exists in MS.
A small study of 18 pwMS and a control group of 11 people with migraines or no neurological disorders. 4 were found in each group that had 1 Zamboni criteria. None were found that had 2 criteria. This was a doppler imaging study.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/sns- ... 6449.story
And from a news article on the research:
The researchers say the results -- and recent reports from other investigators -- "call into question" whether CCSVI actually does play a role in causing MS, and whether there's really any point in trying to treat the blood vessel condition.
That is just depressing!

I don't understand the conflicting results. It's a game of Find the CCSVI only it's no game at all.
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scorpion
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Post by scorpion »

Find the CCSVI!!!! To funny Cece. I know it is not funny but damn you made my evening, for some reason, with that comment. :lol:
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Post by Cece »

thanks scorpion :)
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civickiller
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Post by civickiller »

This is were Upper Cervical Care fits
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frodo
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Re: No Cerebral or Cervical Venous Insufficiency in US Veter

Post by frodo »

In this case the method looks quite well performed. But let's wait for double-blinded studies performed by the Zamboni team. This could be just lack of skills of the team performing the tests.
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frodo
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Post by frodo »

civickiller wrote:This is were Upper Cervical Care fits
Should't the blood flow be modified if they had upper cervical problems?
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civickiller
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Post by civickiller »

not necessarily. maybe this can answer it better, please watch

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bestadmom
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Post by bestadmom »

civickiller wrote:This is were Upper Cervical Care fits
I was thinking the same thing. Servicemen and women with ms could have developed the symptoms as a result of severe trauma, forcing mis-alignment of the spine.
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MegansMom
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Post by MegansMom »

My daughter is ex- military. She did 5 active duty years. One was spent in Korea, she also served time in Saudi Arabia besides her time states side.

She had CCSVI ( left IJV and Azygos) via venography.

I truly question these testers. Too many folks who were tested with MRV, or Doppler and deemed Not to have CCSVI have been later found ( at another center or via venogram) to indeed have it. I don't believe everyone does but it seems that the majority do.

The only true way to know you do not have it is to have a venogram if you have symptoms of CCSVI.
Cat (Catherine Somerville on FB)
MegansMom
My 35 yo daughter is newly dx 8/19/10 (had 12 symptoms)
Dx with Type A CCSVI- 1 IJV & double "candy wrapper" appearance of her Azygos
Venoplasty done Sept 21, 2010
Doing extremely well-
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ikulo
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Post by ikulo »

all this conflicting research is beyond frustrating. :(
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civickiller
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Post by civickiller »

they need to find a test that any radiologist can do to find blockages without having to be trained
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scorpion
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Post by scorpion »

civickiller wrote:they need to find a test that any radiologist can do to find blockages without having to be trained
or "they" need to be trained on why what they think they see is not CCSVI...
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Post by Cece »

I'm curious what we'll see if plethysmography studies are done. That should be the objective test that civickiller proposes.
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civickiller
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Post by civickiller »

scorpion wrote: or "they" need to be trained on why what they think they see is not CCSVI...
i was kinda confused by that. so your saying IR's think theyre not seeing ccsvi but they really are?
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se1956
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Post by se1956 »

In Europe there were (are) trials for screening of breast cancer.

One result is, that such screenings only seem to make sense, when the images are examined by two experienced doctors independently.


R.
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