Gibbledygook's antibiotic log

SarahLonglands · Post by **SarahLonglands** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:20 am

Alex, I'm not commenting on the anti-depressant, but 5htp I really don't think is a good idea if you are treating MS as a CPn infection. Read the two below:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-12975-t ... html#12975

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-12184-t ... html#12184

5htp is on one of the two metabolic pathways of tryptophan, of which melatonin is at the end. Whereas melatonin does not encourage the growth of CPn, trytophan and 5htp do. Do you take melatonin to aid a peaceful night's sleep? It really works and is not a bit addictive, in addition to being a strong antioxidant. I think a sound night's sleep will aid your recovery from this fertility treatment more than anything. You know, the more stressed I am about something, or the more fatigued, even now, the worse I walk and the worse annoying things like phosphenes can be.

Sarah

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:46 am

I wonder whether that's why we're all so low on BDNF and serotonin. Mmm, well I'll skip the 5-HTP for a while and certainly for the next few weeks just to see if the anti-depressant and exercise alone may help with mobility. Besides I'm now quite confused over all the data I've been poring over relating to axonal regeneration. Maybe I should have asked for a serotonin agonist as opposed to the tricyclic... too much PubMed gives me a sore head.
I've been rigorously exercising every day as well. My mood, at least, is much improved.

CureOrBust · Post by **CureOrBust** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:39 am

Sarah, all i can find has tryptophan being converted to 5-htp (for example, or here), not the other way around. and the two links you gave, only talk of tryptophan.

Most 5-htp links also warn of taking it with certain anti depresants.

SarahLonglands · Post by **SarahLonglands** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:54 am

Cureo, yes that's it, then it is converted to melatonin, which is safe. I haven't got time to go looking at the moment for the links, I'm not getting anything done!

Sarah

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:52 am

Ooh! Does this mean I can take 5-HTP? It looks like a very nice, natural supplement to boost the serotonin-BNDF loop. Mind you, Cureo, you're right that one must exercise caution in using 5-HTP with anti-depressants as one can end up with too much serotonin. One for the doctor, methinks.

SarahLonglands · Post by **SarahLonglands** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:18 am

No, better not, stick to melatonin. Trust Marie.

Sarah

CureOrBust · Post by **CureOrBust** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:26 am

Sarah, I think you have missed the point of WHY gibbledygook is thinking of taking 5-HTP. Its NOT for the calming effects, its for the BNDF. And again, I dont think marrie talks of 5-HTP, but tryptophan, and she makes no clear statement, that i can see that says 5-HTP turns to or has the same effect as trytophan. Ask your doctor if it has any pathways to tryptophan.

I have personally tried melatonin twice. I only tried it for a couple of nights each time. I stopped taking it as, if i had to go either way on if i felt better or worse, I could not say better, a little worse if anything.

Melatonin also carries a warning on it for people who have an auto-immune condition. I am not saying dont take it, just monitor yourself.

SarahLonglands · Post by **SarahLonglands** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:09 am

You can see how tryptophan, 5HTP, seratonin and then melatonin are linked. Melatonin is at the end of the pathway. 5HTP is too close to tryptophan which is contraindicated if you are treating MS as a CPn infection, as you will have read. If you are treating it as an auto-immune disease that might be another matter, but if melatonin has this warning, which I know it does and so does my doctor who I am married to, I can't see why 5HTP doesn't either. Alex might want to use 5HTP for the BDNF, but that doesn't mean she can choose for it is not to encourage CPn infection........Sarah

http://www.stdgen.lanl.gov/stdgen/bacte ... ophan.html

http://bmc.ub.uni-potsdam.de/gb-2002-3- ... ch0051.pdf

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:42 am

Well, it's clear tryptophan is a baddie and 5-htp may also be a baddie as it looks chemically very like tryptophan so I'm not sure about taking it or not. I'd just rather boost my serotonin levels with a so called natural supplement and 5-htp looks like a good candidate. My nice Irish doctor pointed out that if the antibiotics were working then worrying about 5-htp feeding the bugs was like worrying about feeding a corpse. Mind you I'm beginning to feel a bit jaded about doctors especially the neurologist who said the fertility treatment would be fine. I deteriorated quite substantially during the treatment in my walking ability and have not recovered even though the eggs came out about a month ago.

SarahLonglands · Post by **SarahLonglands** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:05 am

Well, David just said when I asked him about it, about eighteen months ago "Why should you want to make things more difficult for the abx when you don't need to?" No answer there, really, otherwise I would tend to agree with your doctor, on the other hand, he did say it was OK to take INH, rifampicin and drink................

I hope your walking does recover soon after the fertility treatment. I did have a very good impression of him until then.

Sarah

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:36 am

Yes, I must say, he's very good at prescribing what I want but maybe a bit laissez-faire in other respects. Mmm. I reckon the chlamydia depletes the tryptophan, which in turn depletes the serotonin and that may have an impact on the brain derived neurotrophic factors and without them I won't be able to heal the damage. At least it feels like that. Mmmm.

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:16 am

My theory that the anti-depressant imipramine iwould be helpful by stimulating brain derived neurotrophic factor is under immediate review since my walking has remained as bad as when I first took it although the night spasms have disappeared. This is rather disappointing since I had hoped the pill would stimulate brain neurotrophic factors in a positive way. However since taking this pill my walking has remained totally appalling and as it is this which mainly depresses me I think the effect has been totally counter-productive. I am therefore going to stop taking the imipramine. However I will continue to exercise a lot since that helps promote neurotrophic factors, at least in rats.
I'm on my 24th pulse of flagyl and have been taking my exercise and vitamins much more seriously. The nasty foot burn in my left foot has reappeared slightly over the last day.

CureOrBust · Post by **CureOrBust** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:53 am

gibbledygook wrote:My theory that the anti-depressant imipramine would be helpful by stimulating brain derived neurotrophic factor is under immediate review since my walking has remained as bad as when I first took it although the night spasms have disappeared.

How long have you been taking it? Prozac was found to cause neurogenesis in a certain part of rats brains, but normally after a month. ie It took time. It also was not found (but i dont know if they looked) in the cerebellum, which from my understanding is where ataxia is centred.

Without any scientific backing, even if you were to generate new neurons, I am guessing you would have to train them to perform a function and become useful.

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:25 am

Apologies, my last entry wasn't, I see, very informative. I have spent two weeks on imipramine at 75mg. I've just renewed the prescription so I may return to it but I must say it immediately provoked very noticeable side-effects. On day 1 after taking only 25mg I suffered terrible night spasms. On day 3 after building up to 75mg I attempted to walk on a humid day and could scarcely manage 5 meters. As I had only 5 days before managed 800meters on the arm of my partner it did seem that the imipramine was to blame. After 2 weeks on 75mg a day and exercising vigorously (minimum of 30 minutes on the cross-trainer daily) I attempted to see if the imipramine was exacerbating my walking difficulty. So in the morning I took no imipramine and set off to the coffee shop 600 meters away. This I managed although after 200 meters I was having considerable difficulty. I then took 50 mg of imipramine with my coffee and had some acupuncture which normally has no effect on anything! 2 hours after consuming the 50 mg of imipramine I could barely walk at all. Down to 5 meters. I was also affected during these two weeks by its well-known side effect of dry mouth and slightly blurred vision. One of the rarer side effects listed is leg stiffness or weakness. Yesterday I therefore consumed only 50mg and today already my leg feels stronger. Exercise also stimulates neurotrophins into the brain and spinal cord in rats so maybe I'll just stick to exercise until I notice a real improvement before attempting imipramine again.
Cureo, I think you're right that the improvements would probably only be seen after a month or so but for me right now I need more walking ability to cope with the side effect of leg weakness and stiffness.

I haven't had any imipramine since yesterday morning and my leg is already feeling SOOO much better. Gott sei dank!

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:50 am

I stopped imipramine, a tricyclic antidepressant, which is thought to increase brain derived neurotrophins in the rat brain, 2 weeks ago. This would appear to have been a good idea. My walking has improved a great deal and I can now just about manage 600 meters. I am exercising vigorously which is at least 40 minutes on the cross-trainer daily with 2 to 3 days off a week. My bad leg has evolved. The stiffness I feel when standing up is no longer so acute. The stiffness seems more obviously connected to the foot and the knee as well. This new stiffness sensation seems to have occurred in tandem with my new, vigorous exercise regime.

Painful foot burn in the left foot is negligible until I exercise when I get a tingling sensation afterwards. This is nothing like as bad as last year. In fact it is nothing like last year when it was seriously painful and odd.

Night spasms continue, alas, although thankfully with 2mg to 4mg of zanaflex they disappear. Again this is nothing like last year when I would consider at worst taking 24mg per night.

Movement induced phosphenes haven't troubled me since starting the anti-depressant.

Bladder and bowel seem much improved and I slept last night without needing the toilet at all.

Depression is improved, especially with exercise.

My right hand has been a lot stiffer/number and the right index sometimes now has involutary movement which is a new but rare development.

Today I am taking an extra week off nasty metronidazole as I have a hideous cold and the only thing to do is drink brandy and lemon and read books on Buddhism.

This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

Gibbledygook's antibiotic log

Doctors are rubbish!!!

Imipramine failure

Re: Imipramine failure

Good job!