Diet cure anyone?

[TonyNZ]

Hi There,

I am relatively new to MS - 1 year diagnosed with PPMS, 3 years suffering from symptoms. I have tried a vast number of 'cures' over the past 2 years costing thousands of $ all to no avail.

I now try a mixture of supplements, low dose naltraxone, exercise and an adapted Jelinek/Wahls diet (plus occasional visits to a Psychologist). I cope OK.
What I want to ask the forum is this: Who has DEFINITIVELY reversed or cured their MS by adopting a specific diet regime? Is there anyone out there who has actually done this? There is a bewildering number of possible solutions to MS and diet is often touted as being the single most critical area. I do not disagree that diet is very important and thanks to my current diet, I have lost weight and feel generally much better than I can remember. Pity about the MS!
I have bought all the books etc from Dr Wahls and am somewhat confused by the number of advisory panels in the book. She seems to be talking to an audience that might sue her. Jelinek seems to focus on a nebulous mix of meditation and diet and I am yet to see anyone scream 'cured!'

Don't get me wrong. I truly want to be a believer. I truly want to follow a path and be the one who shouts and leaps for joy. I am just not seeing anything absolutely believable at the moment.

Rgds

Tony

[ElliotB]

There is no cure at this point, but many appear to respond well to some kind of diet. All diets seem to work well for some and not others.

The Wahls diet and Jelinek diets are quite different (opposite) to each other, so I don't quite understand what your diet is. The Wahls diet is basically a high (good) fat, consuming lots of (grass fed) meat kind of diet and the Jelinek diet calls for no meat at all. They could not be more opposite of each other. Yet both seem to work for some and not for others. So what exactly are you eating?

I unknowingly started on a Wahls type diet and protocol prior to reading her latest book based on my own research. I had also previously read the Overcoming MS book/Jelinek diet (and the Swank diet and many of the other top books available) but settled on a high good fat diet based on the research I did. I believe the key to success against MS is diet along with other major lifestyle changes. Dr. Wahls' protocol outlines a complete program of diet, exercise (lots of it), sleep (lots of it), stress elimination, and a host of other things to follow.

Interestingly, fish and all other seafood is permitted by the Jelinek diet. This is where I feel the Jelinek diet is lacking, in that I believe the intent of consuming fish and seafood is to allow for the consumption of good fat (Omega 3). Well, not all fish is high in Omega 3s - basically wild salmon, wild tuna and sardines are (there are also select others). Wild caught seafood such as shrimp, crabs, lobster are also considered good for health for numerous reasons (avoid farm raised fishes and seafood).

Here is an interesting article ranking fish/seafood according to nutrition:

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/feedin ... nutritious

Since grass fed meats are high in Omega 3 fats,and other good/essential fats, and are considered by many (but not to all) to be as healthy as wild caught fish/seafood, I feel they are a good addition to any diet that calls for foods high in Omega 3 fat. In fact, most agree that Omega 3 fat is one of several essential fats and good for you. Good fats are needed for good health. Do some research on EFAs for further info:

http://www.downtoearth.org/health/nutri ... atty-acids

Many say to avoid foods that are high in saturated fats. I only eat foods that are at or close to a 1 to 1 ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fats.

So in answer to your question, had diet cure anyone, the answer to me is sort of. Dr. Wahls was in a wheel chair for a while, and now is totally mobile. But I think it is a combination of diet along with the other factors (combining diet with exercise and the other protocols she lists). And perhaps most importantly, a burning desire to be well. You can just want to be well, you have to really, really, really, really want to be well. And be willing to do whatever it takes to be well with total conviction, not just 'trying' but doing!

I wish you success in your journey to better health!

[ElliotB]

My last sentence above had a typo and should read "You can't just want to be well..."

Another interesting concept when it comes to diet is that some do nothing at all (with regard to diet, exercise, etc.) and also seem do do well. And others do everything possible and continue to go down hill. Needless to say, MS is a complex disease.

[TonyNZ]

Thanks for that very thoughtful and intuitive response! I wondered if there were people out there who did nothing, yet also recovered.

By adapted diet I mean that I have taken various aspects of both protocols and use them in my own diet as this seems to benefit me more so than following a specific regime in its entirety. I am gluten free (gluten definitely has a negative effect on me even though I yearn for 'real' pasta), dairy free (again I notice a benefit), sugar free and preservative free. I try to follow the Wahls recommendation for eating copious quantities of green veg, the Jelinek adaption of meditation and the almost paleo-diet intake of meat from Dr Wahls. I initially preferred the Jelinek diet but being basically vegetarian did not work for me - my health suffered and I think that my mental state was negatively affected too. I think that what I have embraced is the overwhelming sense of positivity and impending victory from both regimes and this I think is probably more beneficial than anything else.

The LDN is definitely having a positive effect on me. I find that it has improved my cognitive abilities to a noticeable extent and now I am looking into the MS NUT system. I am very curious as to the increase in ms figures in Iran post their revolution, could it be that due to increased covering-up that their reduced exposure to sun has brought this on? I lived in the Persian Gulf for several years and perversely probably had less exposure to sun than when I lived in the UK.
Anyway, there is always some sliver of hope offered in some direction and I am happy to chase whatever I come across! Who knows, perhaps a cure will come from an unlikely source

Regards

Tony

[ElliotB]

" I wondered if there were people out there who did nothing"

When it comes to diet, I don't think anyone knows for sure whether diet truly helps or not on its own. The 'common' notion is to avoid at least saturated fats and some say all fats. Certain fats are considered good for you. I have been eating a high fat diet since June 2014 and am doing quite well. But proper diet won't strengthen your muscles on their own - muscles need to used to be in good shape and work as intended and make up for the muscles that don't work as intended. As a guess, I believe that perhaps diet alone is not as important as a diet along with a reasonable (more rather than less) amounts of exercise, stress elimination, ample sleep and supplements. Dr. Wahls strengthened her body and gained back he mobility with a tremendous amount of hard work and did everything possible to improve her situation in addition to diet. And I think that is the key - doing everything possible in addition to diet.

[jerrygallow]

not to be a contrarian, but if your conclusion is that the Wahls diet is about meat, you got it wrong somewhere. Her diet is about heaps (plates full) of vegetables. In her most recent talk on youtube, basically she classifies her diet approach as being about vegetables. (she says talk to your doctor before starting, but if they don't get excited about you eating tons more vegetables, you should find another doctor). She urges eating fish (so does Swank and Jelinek) Her only point of departure is that she allows coconut oil and grass fed red meat (on the assumption that it is much leaner than grocery bought red meat). So the proteins she allows are high in omega 3s. She does say you should have 3oz of liver once per week, but even Swank allowed 3oz of red meat once per week. I don't see a big difference between the approaches. Now I've seen people who say they followed her diet and got sicker, but if you press for details, you will find they were eating mostly the fad paleo way as opposed to the Wahls way.

To answer Ops question, no diet is a cure (other than maybe Roger McDougall). But what drug is a cure? Can diet be an effective treatment--absolutely. I am on a facebook forum for the swank diet, which I've followed for seven years, and numbers of people there have essentially stopped their MS. That's as close as you can get.

[ElliotB]

"if your conclusion is that the Wahls diet is about meat, you got it wrong somewhere"

We must have read different books and seen different videos from Dr. Wahls. Her diet is TOTALLY about eating meats (grass fed only).

I first found out about Dr. Wahls by reading her testimonial left at the Texas company she buys (or at least originally bought) her grass fed meats. On that site is a diet recommended by the owner. The diet is called The Real Diet of Man, which I believe is the foundation of the Wahls diet.

Here is a link to the diet I believe Dr. Wahls based her diet on (I am not sure when this was originally published but it was many, many years, possibly as much as 10 years, before Dr. Wahls published hers):

http://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/grass- ... ery-simple

In her book The Wahls Protocolo, on page 153 (and probably elsewhere), she specifically recommends eating animal protein every day, 9-21 ounces. On page 174, she recommends eating 12 ounces of organ meat per week, with their consumption spread out through the week (page 174).

The importance of eating meat is that meat contains EFAs (Essential Fatty Acids) that our bodies CANNOT produce and must be consumed in foods, meats specifically, fatty meats specifically. On page 156, she recommends eating meats that are in balance with their fats in a ratio of 1:1 Omega 3 to Omega 6 fat. Only 10% grass fed meats have this balance. Certain seafoods come close

Frankly, I think the main reason that some fail with The Wahls Protocol with regard to diet only is that they don't understand it. Not only is it extremely important to eat meats daily, but it is critical to consume high fat meats and they must be 100% grass fed because only grass fed meats provide that 1:1 (or close to it) ratio of EFAs.

As far as vegetables, yes, she does recommend a lot of them, but I am not convinced that they are the most important part of her protocol, but I think that all aspects of her protocol work together in unison and are perhaps essential to each other (perhaps), nor does she ever recommend only eating vegetables. She was a vegetarian at one point and STRONGLY recommends against it now. Starting on page 159 of her book in a section titled "The Potential Harm of Vegetarianism", she goes on the explain her position and concludes that it may be best to include animal protein in your diet.

In fact, as you go into the final stage of her protocol (she divides it into 3 stages), she reduces the amount of vegetables consumed (Page 188, Wahls Paleo Plus) an suggests increasing the amount of fat. Something I find strange about this phase of her diet is she recommends adding coconut oil and/or coconut milk and reducing meat consumption, which I find strange as the fat from coconut oils is out of balance (not 1:1). The only oil I have found to meet this 1:1 criteria is Macadamia nut oil, which is the only oil I consume when I use oil (which is rare - when I need oil/fat for cooking, I used the left over oils from the fatty meats I cook.)

[ElliotB]

correction to a typo made above

On page 156, she recommends eating meats that are in balance with their fats in a ratio of 1:1 Omega 3 to Omega 6 fat. Only 100% grass fed meats have this balance. (in error, I wrote 10% in my original post.

[centenarian100]

Unfortunately, I don't think we can learn much about diet based on personal anecdotes.

The average person with relapsing multiple sclerosis has an annualized relapse rate of about 0.5 (based on control groups of recent clinical trials) which is about one relapse per two years. Hence, it is not at all unusual for someone to go 3-5 years or longer without a relapse. Is such a person "cured."

People with progressive multiple sclerosis often progress very slowly with no noticeable difference over a few years or may have long plateaus or may burn out and not progress further. Is a person who was previously progressing who is now stable or improved "cured?"

I have met many people like this who are eating terrible diets.

The only way to find out about diet and MS is with high quality randomized trials which required funding-either from the NIH or private donors. I have personally met at least 50 people who have tried the Terry Wahl's diet-almostall with modest or no benefit-only a few who claimed truly impressive results like Dr. Terry Wahls herself.

I would be willing to put up a few grand if we can get some people together, but it would be a very expensive project, and we would have to recruit an experienced trialist. My husband's neurologist was not interested.

[Youarethecure]

Its hard to say what helps and doesn't help MS. Because they can not prove ANYTHING.

Who is to say that no matter what we do we will have a relapse here there then there? Or vice versa? Who is to say its not a path of progression that can not be changed or impacted?

But that is also the exact reason we have to do everything possible that could and should help.

[Leonard]

MS is caused by a combination of factors, mainly viral, all in some way convolved, differently for different people, symptoms vary , sometimes diet works, sometimes it won't.

A low fat diet will slow the viral content in the gut, and the production of immune complexes that are very damaging. If chronic viral infection goes down, the immune complexes go down, the superoxide goes down, the peroxynitrite goes down, the metabolism recovers.

A vegetable diet will release antioxidants to clean the mitochondria. And capture the peroxynitrite. Less jamming, ADP/ATP mechanism restored.

Eventually in both cases (Jelinek and Wahls) the immune system will resurrect.

Full details and protocol for true healing on http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-d ... 15188.html

Please read the first page and the last page (41) which contains the protocol.

You don't have to believe me, the future will tell. But at least have a look and think it over.

I want to have the protocol inplemented for myself. Others are joining me now.
The idea is to get a well organised patient group in The Netherlands.

[centenarian100]

Its hard to say what helps and doesn't help MS. Because they can not prove ANYTHING.

Who is to say that no matter what we do we will have a relapse here there then there? Or vice versa? Who is to say its not a path of progression that can not be changed or impacted?

But that is also the exact reason we have to do everything possible that could and should help.

You can prove it-or at least provide strong evidence.

It requires more and willing participants. There just are not good economic incentives to do high quality trials for diet in MS as there is with pharmaceuticals.

[centenarian100]

MS is caused by a combination of factors, mainly viral, all in some way convolved, differently for different people, symptoms vary , sometimes diet works, sometimes it won't.

A low fat diet will slow the viral content in the gut, and the production of immune complexes that are very damaging. If chronic viral infection goes down, the immune complexes go down, the superoxide goes down, the peroxynitrite goes down, the metabolism recovers.

A vegetable diet will release antioxidants to clean the mitochondria. And capture the peroxynitrite. Less jamming, ADP/ATP mechanism restored.

Eventually in both cases (Jelinek and Wahls) the immune system will resurrect.

Full details and protocol for true healing on http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-d ... 15188.html

Please read the first page and the last page (41) which contains the protocol.

You don't have to believe me, the future will tell. But at least have a look and think it over.

I want to have the protocol inplemented for myself. Others are joining me now.
The idea is to get a well organised patient group in The Netherlands.

Can you prove it? Do you have any evidence?...or just anecdotes? What about the numerous people I have met who progressed or had relapses on these diets? Did they not follow them correctly? Do you discount failures and count successes?

[Leonard]

MS is caused by a combination of factors, mainly viral, all in some way convolved, differently for different people, symptoms vary , sometimes diet works, sometimes it won't.

A low fat diet will slow the viral content in the gut, and the production of immune complexes that are very damaging. If chronic viral infection goes down, the immune complexes go down, the superoxide goes down, the peroxynitrite goes down, the metabolism recovers.

A vegetable diet will release antioxidants to clean the mitochondria. And capture the peroxynitrite. Less jamming, ADP/ATP mechanism restored.

Eventually in both cases (Jelinek and Wahls) the immune system will resurrect.

Full details and protocol for true healing on http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-d ... 15188.html

Please read the first page and the last page (41) which contains the protocol.

You don't have to believe me, the future will tell. But at least have a look and think it over.

I want to have the protocol inplemented for myself. Others are joining me now.
The idea is to get a well organised patient group in The Netherlands.

Can you prove it? Do you have any evidence?...or just anecdotes? What about the numerous people I have met who progressed or had relapses on these diets? Did they not follow them correctly? Do you discount failures and count successes?

This is the overall picture that emerges.
True, this does not exclude individual experiences that deviate from the main line.

There are literally hundreds of refs to the medical literature on http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-d ... 15188.html
I think the scientific evidence is as sound or better than what the medical community has to offer for MS today.

Yesterday, I was looking into the Multiple Sclerosis Journal by Sage Publications from Oct 2014. You can find it on the net.
There are highly specific papers on cerebral spinal fluids and the like.
These studies consider a situation where things have already gone terribly wrong.
Not very useful in my view.

Other papers consider MS somewhat more on the meta level.
I will give you just two examples:

One paper on disgesting the emerging role for the gut microbiome in central nervous system demyelination is good by itself.
But it fails to make the next step: the really important step: what if immunity is weakening because of things happening in the gut microbiome?
That is when the herpes virus emerges and things go wrong.

Another paper on low testosterone associated with disability in men with multiple sclerosis again is ok by itself.
But it fails to look into the bigger picture.
A number of hormones will be low, testosterone is one. This is caused by a generally low cortisol. Cortisol is the life elixer.
Because the HPA axis is affected and insufficient cortisol is produced.
The NO increases because of low costisol, and with high immune complexes because of chronic viral infection, peroxynitrite is created.
See also the link to the cortisol article in the last posting on pg 41.
This paper is fully intertwined with MS as a disease.

This is where I blame the medical sector.
They have never created a bigger picture - a truely holistic picture, or you could say a broader engineering view on our metabolism.
In stead, they got drowned in the nitty gritty of our genetic make up, to find somewhere some deficiency.
We know now what the consequences are.

As I said, you don't have to believe me. The future will tell.
But I have never seen an all-comprehensive boundary-les picture of MS as under the above link.

I think this should be the starting point for the medical sector.
And I would love to do a review article with professionals.

[centenarian100]

Leonard: I don't disagree with you regarding the likely importance of diet in multiple sclerosis, but dietary evidence should take the form of randomized trials with clinical outcomes in humans, not inference based on theoretical principles.

A lot of things "should" work but don't actually work when proper scrutiny is applied

For instance, taking out the clot during an acute stroke with a mechanical thrombectomy "should" be beneficial, but a randomized trial failed to show a benefit over standard therapy:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1214300

We need better studies so that we can confirm hypotheses that are accurate and reject those which are not.

There is nothing wrong with modifying your diet based on limited evidence, but don't make claims which are not substantiated.

The current methodology is as follows

Step 1: claim your diet cures MS and sell books
Step 2: profit

I recommend the following methodology

Step 1: Obtain funding from the NIH or private donors
Step 2: Evaluate dietary intervention in MS using randomized trials in humans
Step 3: document/publicize findings
Step 4: profit/recognition/karma

-C