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I will buy some mice, carefully cut them open ... and tie their jugulars closed.

My cat would love that I'm sure.

Though since I'm no scientist I'm sure it would be dismissed.

Anyway, Neurologists aren't going to do that because it would prevent their autoimmune mice theory.

concerned wrote:I think the up-and-down nature of MS + placebo effect could account for that, which is why controlled studies are needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Most definitely. My symptoms have not stopped for the past 6 months, yet 4 weeks after my procedure I have almost no symptoms, but it's placebo right? Nor has my fatigue or cog fog changed for the past 3 years, yet now it's gone? Must be placebo.

Placebo effect has been experienced in rheumatoid arthritis for like 2 1/2 years or something. It is entirely possible that you are and it is entirely possible that your not experiencing a placebo effect. Let's find out!

there will be lot's of ' johnny come-lately's ' in the CCSVI journey.

In that I mean .... those coat tailing the Zamboni team ... and worst of all ...those trying to elevate their status by offering research that only serves to cause confusion.

As those who have followed the CCSVI bouncing ball from Day One know..... it is very difficult to obtain and understand the Zamboni CCSVI protocol . Those great doctors on board .... sought out the ''how to '' by travelling to Ferrara .... to learn from the Master.

So how far is it from Germany to Italy ?

To play it safe .... our German friends threw in ONE ccsvi detected person into their study. This is ....of course .... proof that their equipment and techniques ..... are sound .

What if their research ended with not finding CCSVI in anyone tested ?

It's self explanatory.

Nice try boy's and girls .

May I suggest you gas up your VW 's and take a little trip to Italy ?

There resides a real expert. You might learn something .





Mr. Success

20 patients. more anecdotes. but the narrative now is describing incompetence.

If ms is autoimmune then how does this fit with the results from Inclined bed Therapy? Only a circulatory cause and effect fits with IBT!

In fact, there is ample evidence of IBT bolstering the immune system, the evidence for which is a stronger resistance to viral and bacterial infections.

People around us have influenza and we don't year after year after year. And when we do get an infection, it quickly resolves, far quicker in fact than people who are sleeping in a flat bed.

Sounds to me like the Neurologists are backed up into a corner and gnawing at their own insecurities.

I read the article and found it to be very predictable, but it is after all a news article and subject to inaccuracies. Much better to wait for the published paper before forming an opinion.

If Zamboni is correct then he has nothing whatsoever to fear from people poking around trying to find errors in his research. In fact this is the scientific method and with all it’s faults, it does tend to weed out the wheat from the chaff.

If there have been a deliberate attempt to discredit Zamboni, these will not remain hidden for long.

I am very disappointed with the Dutch 'research' and the attention it has gotten from the media. I feel it has set back any developments for years in Holland. Very disappointing.

I for one would like to know - talking about placebo here - how come my left toes started working again after 8 years, weeks after I started taking Niacin (vasodilator). This for me has convinced me Zamboni is right.

The Dutch research is seriously flawed, they only used patients with MS in beginners stage and as controls they used familymembers. Also they used their own scanning technique.

MrSuccess wrote:So how far is it from Germany to Italy ?

Just to depict it: It is a 10 hours drive from Bochum, Germany to Ferrara, Italy. I happen to know some people who actually walked the distance or went there by bike. You don't even have to pass border crossings or identity check.

eve wrote:I am very disappointed with the Dutch 'research' and the attention it has gotten from the media. I feel it has set back any developments for years in Holland. Very disappointing.

Maybe not. If you look at the studies so far, all dismissive studies are published in neurologic journals, all positive studies come from vascular journals. Maybe what we see is just the scientific way of some sort of a "handover" between two academic branches. Don't loose hope!

Speaking of junk science...

MrSuccess wrote:
So how far is it from Germany to Italy ? Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


Just to depict it: It is a 10 hours drive from Bochum, Germany to Ferrara, Italy. I happen to know some people who actually walked the distance or went there by bike. You don't even have to pass border crossings or identity check.

A way or another you'll have to cross Switzerland or Austria...

But it is very easy nowadays

The issue is not traveling to Italy. If your life depended on it, you would go anywhere. The issue is the natural human tendency to avoid domination i.e. don't tell me what and how to do - I'll figure out my own method to diagnose CCSVI. I'm a celebrated doctor/researcher in my own country and I will not allow some Italian, what's his name, cast doubt on my omnipotent status.

Besides research into human decision making shows we are anything but rational. Commitment to an idea (re. autoimmune theory) is extremely resilient and resistant to new input. Scientist are not excluded.

That was purely technical speculation. But when you already see kids who do not want to share their toys with their siblings; what can you expect

It is "MINE"

I asked that neuro I saw (and argued with) recently of how he can explain such remarkable results for some after the procedure. His anwser was that when anyone undergoes surgery of any form the body releases high doses of steroids as a reaction to the surgery, and this steroid reaction could be providing the results.

Is this true or absolute rubbish??

LR1234 wrote:Is this true or absolute rubbish??

At least in terms of effects lasting longer than a few days, I think the latter.

Another thought: According to this theory any PwMS who had any kind of surgery would have experienced symptom relief.

Well they've pumped me full of steroids before and my toes did not do a thing untill I started taking Niacin. (I feel Niacin gave me a mini liberation which is why I keep going on about it). i would say rubbish - I am pretty sure most pwms have had steroids at some point and I have never heard of any one doing so well immediatley afterwards.