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koneall wrote:Why would cavemen need vitamins?

They likely didn't live long enough.

Modern fruits and veggies have more sugar than years past. That doesn't mean they have fewer vitamins. If you follow the conspiracy theory, conglomerates are increasing sugar levels but not removing vitamins. Red apples are still high in vitamins, same for peppers, etc.

kaypeeoh

"Modern fruits and veggies have more sugar than years past. That doesn't mean they have fewer vitamins. "

While the higher sugar content does not mean they have fewer nutrients, there is ample evidence that they do indeed have fewer nutrients. Here are just a couple of articles:


"Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious?"

Because of soil depletion, crops grown decades ago were much richer in vitamins and minerals than the varieties most of us get today,
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... tion-loss/


Are Fruits and Vegetables Less Nutritious Today?

Studies suggest that today's fruits and vegetables might be missing some key nutrients. Find out why, and discover shopping and cooking techniques that preserve nutritional value.
https://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-nut ... today.aspx


In addition, modern fruits and vegetables are laced with pesticides - this is an indisputable fact. Unless you grow your own, you simply cannot avoid ingesting them as ALL commercially produced modern fruits and vegetables have pesticides both on and in them whether they are grown conventionally or organically.


The 12 Most Pesticide-Contaminated Fruits and Vegetables Of 2015:

https://food.ndtv.com/food-drinks/the-1 ... 015-752555

Something to think about: the population groups that have zero incidence of MS consumed (at least in the past) very, very minimal fruits and vegetables and thrived on a high good fat meat based diet. As their diets have changed in modern times, so has their resistance to disease.

"...the population groups that have zero incidence of MS consumed (at least in the past) very, very minimal fruits and vegetables and thrived..." So they ate a high fat diet and died of cardiovascular disease rather than MS. Or they couldn't outrun the sabertooth tiger.

"...so they ate a high fat diet and died of cardiovascular disease"

There is no connection between a high good fat diet and cardiovascular disease. In fact, people who follow a high good fat diet are typically very healthy and typically what ails them improves.


But...

A Google search of "do pesticides cause disease" produces well over 1 million results. A similar Google search of "do pesticides cause death" also resulted in well over 1 million results. Pesticides by their nature are designed to kill.



You may find this of interest:

High-Fat vs High-Carbohydrate Diet and Cardiovascular Disease
Which diet offers more heart protection?

https://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/ ... ar-disease


Scroll down to the section titled: Key Findings

it's about quality macro and micro nutrients, and making the adjustments to at least match public health recommendations for adequate intake, without taking anything to excess. less so about the specific foods providing said nutrients.

swank makes sense for ms patients who arrived at their ms dx while on a nutrient sparse low veg and high fat diet.

not so much for those who arrived at their ms dx as a result of 'the mcdougall diet' aka 'me as a vegan'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._McDougall

i ended up with my ms dx because in the early 90s, while in hindsight already suffering from an array of nutritional issues, i ran with early evidence that a switch from a low quality omnivorous diet to a vegetarian diet was having measurable positive effects. i hadn't yet learned that you can take anything too far. introducing a higher variety of veg in part to prevent dietary boredom was great. the failure to ensure essential nutrient needs were met sat in an ideological blind spot until i was diagnosed. luckily by the time i got the dx i happened to have been taking some science courses. spent about 5 mins trying to figure out how to be the most nutritionally responsible vegan, then said nope i don't have time for this learning curve i need to do the opposite of what brought me here. hence the logical appeal of klenner. best thing i ever did.

koneall wrote:Modern fruits and veggies have more sugar than years past. That doesn't mean they have fewer vitamins. If you follow the conspiracy theory, conglomerates are increasing sugar levels but not removing vitamins. Red apples are still high in vitamins, same for peppers, etc.

Breeding the Nutrition Out of Our Food

http://www.thisisms.com/forum/diet-f9/t ... ml#p210198

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... ref=sunday

Evidence of decreasing mineral density in wheat grain over the last 160 years (2008)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2X08000679

Wheat is an important source of minerals such as iron, zinc, copper and magnesium in the UK diet. The dietary intake of these nutrients has fallen in recent years because of a combination of reduced energy requirements associated with sedentary lifestyles and changes in dietary patterns associated with lower micronutrient density in the diet. Recent publications using data from food composition tables indicate a downward trend in the mineral content of foods and it has been suggested that intensive farming practices may result in soil depletion of minerals. The aim of our study was to evaluate changes in the mineral concentration of wheat using a robust approach to establish whether trends are due to plant factors (e.g. cultivar, yield) or changes in soil nutrient concentration. The mineral concentration of archived wheat grain and soil samples from the Broadbalk Wheat Experiment (established in 1843 at Rothamsted, UK) was determined and trends over time examined in relation to cultivar, yield, and harvest index. The concentrations of zinc, iron, copper and magnesium remained stable between 1845 and the mid 1960s, but since then have decreased significantly, which coincided with the introduction of semi-dwarf, high-yielding cultivars. In comparison, the concentrations in soil have either increased or remained stable. Similarly decreasing trends were observed in different treatments receiving no fertilizers, inorganic fertilizers or organic manure. Multiple regression analysis showed that both increasing yield and harvest index were highly significant factors that explained the downward trend in grain mineral concentration.

the stable soil nutrient bit was good news at least.

Mineral nutrient composition of vegetables, fruits and grains: The context of reports of apparent historical declines (2017)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7516302113

Highlights
• Mineral nutrient composition of vegetables, fruits and grains is not declining.
• Allegations of decline due to agricultural soil mineral depletion are unfounded.
• Some high-yield varieties show a dilution effect of lower mineral concentrations. (as in, those semi-dwarf, high-yielding wheat cultivars, i'm guessing...)
• Changes are within natural variation ranges and are not nutritionally significant.
• Eating the recommended daily servings provides adequate nutrition.

Abstract
Reports of apparent historical declines in mineral nutrients of vegetables, fruits and grains, allegedly due to soil mineral depletion by agriculture, triggered this critical review. Comparisons of food composition data published decades apart are not reliable. Over time changes in data sources, crop varieties, geographic origin, ripeness, sample size, sampling methods, laboratory analysis and statistical treatment affect reported nutrient levels. Comparisons with matching archived soil samples show soil mineral content has not declined in locations cultivated intensively with various fertilizer treatments. Contemporaneous analyses of modern versus old crop varieties grown side-by-side, and archived samples, show lower mineral concentrations in varieties bred for higher yields where increased carbohydrate is not accompanied by proportional increases in minerals – a “dilution effect”. Apparent declines, e.g., the extreme case of copper from −34% to −81%, represent small absolute changes: per 100 g dry weight vegetables have 0.11–1.71 mg (1555% natural range of variation), fruit 01–2.06 mg (20,600% range), and grains 0.1–1.4 mg (1400% range); copper composition is strongly subject to the dilution effect. The benefits of increased yield to supply food for expanding populations outweigh small nutrient dilution effects addressed by eating the recommended daily servings of vegetables, fruits and whole grains.

i have not read the whole of that 2017 study yet but so far, kinda lovin it

The best way to investigate is to write something argumentative and let others do all the work.