Some news

[malden]

My common sence is that 'blood in reversing flow' is hemodynamic imposible, and that so called 'reflux' is just the artifact in bad tuned color doppler machine.

Reflux is a commonly found feature of CVI.

Check out this animation:
http://www.vnus.com/venous-reflux/

The animation is bottom-side-up, since it's of a valve in lower-body CVI; for CCSVI the brain would be on the bottom of the screen with the blood refluxing up towards it.

This animatin is from veins in legs ('Venous reflux disease, also known as venous insufficiency, is a medical condition affecting the circulation of blood in the lower extremities')

In your neck valves are not so important, you can live normal without them (except you sleep like a bat....upside down). Its all the gravity thing: below hart veins need healty valves to help blood return uphill, above hart blood (in veins) flow downhill - no need for healty valves.

And this animation is not 'bottom-side-up' as you wrote this leg vein animation is in correct orientation. For the brain veins you must find another animation.

M.

[PCakes]

hi Cece.. can you explain the function of venous valves in the upper body? makes sense in the lower to defeat gravity but why above the heart? is it simply to regulate the speed of circulation? I guess that makes sense too.. if not then blood would flow out too quickly? but what then of 'inverted' valves?
so much to learn...

[Cece]

In your neck valves are not so important, you can live normal without them (except you sleep like a bat....upside down).

I really wondered about this, when I read that around 10% of people lack jugular veins altogether. DrS addressed it at some point. It is much better to lack a jugular valve than to have a solid web or membrane across the jugular vein that allows little to no blood to travel through. At least if you lack a valve there isn't a valve there that is actively holding the blood from draining out! Gravity does make a difference but not enough to overcome some of the ccsvi malformed valves that our bodies are coming up with.

So in order of desirability, it would be first functional valves, then no valves, then CCSVI crazily malformed valves.

I indicated on my post with the animation that it was of CVI in the lower body, and while gravity does need to be taken into consideration, it still counters the argument that there is no such thing as venous reflux.

Also: what thread am I in? What is actually being discussed here? Who is sleeping upside down like a bat? (Having looked into the first of these, it would appear we are in costumenastional's thread and are quite off-subject.)

Pcakes, valves in the jugulars are meant to keep blood from refluxing back toward the brain. You'd think gravity alone would prevent this, but what if you bend over? A healthy jugular valve would prevent reflux, once a pulse came through and blood was past the valve. A ccsvi malformed valve would hold the blood in toward the brain.

[malden]

I really wondered about this, when I read that around 10% of people lack jugular veins altogether. DrS addressed it at some point. It is much better to lack a jugular valve than to have a solid web or membrane across the jugular vein that allows little to no blood to travel through. At least if you lack a valve there isn't a valve there that is actively holding the blood from draining out! Gravity does make a difference but not enough to overcome some of the ccsvi malformed valves that our bodies are coming up with.

So in order of desirability, it would be first functional valves, then no valves, then CCSVI crazily malformed valves.

I indicated on my post with the animation that it was of CVI in the lower body, and while gravity does need to be taken into consideration, it still counters the argument that there is no such thing as venous reflux.

Also: what thread am I in? What is actually being discussed here? Who is sleeping upside down like a bat?

????!!!! Your brain fog is bigger than mine - I give up.

(or.... you are crossing on the Dark Side?)

M.

[malden]

hi Cece.. can you explain the function of venous valves in the upper body? makes sense in the lower to defeat gravity but why above the heart? is it simply to regulate the speed of circulation? I guess that makes sense too.. if not then blood would flow out too quickly? but what then of 'inverted' valves?
so much to learn...

I am not Cece (still) but I am going to try to answer your question: veins are inert, they can't 'regulate the speed of circulation' only HEART can do that. There is no 'blood would flow out too quickly' issue - only to slow if hart rate is decrising.

[Lyon]

.

[malden]

Hi Malden,
Not to compromise a fellow "dark-sider" but if valves above the heart are not especially important.......isn't that what ricci's problems involve, a smushed valve above the heart?

I'm also going to try to refresh my memory via reading ricci's old posts but offhand it seemed that's what his operation was due to repair.
Bob

I am in a BIG temptation not to answer in Rici thread...
'Tempations of Saint Antony' (Salvador Dali) -replica- is one of favorite paintings on my wall.

And.... for money.... they can repair whatever you want: valves, noses, buttocks, tits, veins, lips, chicks..... just name it

M.

[Cece]

The big thing would be if a valve is more of a barricade or a backwards facing valve that holds blood in rather than letting it out. Then blood cannot get through and refluxes up and down again through the collaterals.

Yes, Rici's case is of a destroyed valve.

Webs and membranes are not just in my son's Spiderman books; they're a term some IRs have used to describe certain valve malformations. A trash can lid-like malformation that blocks the jugular (but can be lifted out of the way by a catheter and missed during a venogram!) will keep blood in that should be flowing down and out through the jugular. The blood will find another way out, through the collaterals, or we'd all have purple heads...but that is where the reflux comes into play, because the blood tried to go out the jugular first, but hit the trash-can lid and had to reflux back up.

The animation I linked to is by no means perfect, but it does demonstrate venous reflux within the body (as a comment had been made that there was no such thing as reflux). It takes imagination to look at the animation and start picturing how the various types of CCSVI would affect it.

Here's another valve animation: http://lpig.doereport.com/generateexhib ... D=14555&I=

I look at that and just have to picture it flipped and the valve thickened where it meets the venous wall to the point where not much blood gets through.

[malden]

The big thing would be if a valve is more of a barricade or a backwards facing valve that holds blood in rather than letting it out. Then blood cannot get through and refluxes up and down again through the collaterals.

Yes, Rici's case is of a destroyed valve.

Webs and membranes are not just in my son's Spiderman books; they're a term some IRs have used to describe certain valve malformations. A trash can lid-like malformation that blocks the jugular (but can be lifted out of the way by a catheter and missed during a venogram!) will keep blood in that should be flowing down and out through the jugular. The blood will find another way out, through the collaterals, or we'd all have purple heads...but that is where the reflux comes into play, because the blood tried to go out the jugular first, but hit the trash-can lid and had to reflux back up.

The animation I linked to is by no means perfect, but it does demonstrate venous reflux within the body (as a comment had been made that there was no such thing as reflux). It takes imagination to look at the animation and start picturing how the various types of CCSVI would affect it.

Here's another valve animation: http://lpig.doereport.com/generateexhib ... D=14555&I=

I look at that and just have to picture it flipped and the valve thickened where it meets the venous wall to the point where not much blood gets through.

All you said is correct.... just take off 'reflux' word and try to read it again.
Blood doesn't hit something and try to reflux in oposite directin. Blood is not a rubber ball. If there is no pass thru - it stops. If there is narrowing blood is confused, make local swirrels, get more speed - and pass throught - but dont 'reflux'. M.

[cheerleader]

All you said is correct.... just take off 'reflux' word and try to read it again.
Blood doesn't hit something and try to reflux in oposite directin. Blood is not a rubber ball. If there is no pass thru - it stops. If there is narrowing blood is confused, make local swirrels, get more speed - and pass throught - but dont 'reflux'. Venous blood cant flow 'upstreem'. M.

How have these boards devolved in mere months? Of course there is reflux and reversed flow in jugular veins. Venous blood flows upstream. Just look at medical papers. That's what we used to do around here-
This isn't even by Dr. Zamboni. It's referring to IJV reflux in transient global amnesia as related to jugular valve insufficiency per Dr. Chung.

The MRA study revealed that only the most severe reflux in the IJV causes intracranial venous reflux; six were in the group of continuous reversed flow in left IJV and one was in the group of segmental reversed flow in left distal IJV. These findings suggest that TGA might be one of the clinical manifestations of the "cerebral-type intermittent venous claudication," which stems from cerebral venous outflow impairment, insufficient venous collaterals and specific precipitating factors.

'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17629610

I'm sorry, but these CCSVI discussions began with a medical paper that was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Some people may not want to believe in venous insufficiency or reflux or reversed blood flow, but that doesn't make it so.
Malden, you continue to bully people, and never provide any medical papers or documentation. You may not believe in CCSVI, that's fine. But you have no proof other than your statements.
cheer

[cheerleader]

Here are some more studies regarding the dangers of jugular reflux, IJVV incompetence and reversal of blood flow into the brain:

in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (something I had asked Rici if he had, he does not)
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 2/abstract

Results.
IJVVI was found in 18 (60%) COPD patients and in all 5 (100%) PPH patients, which was significantly different from the controls (27%; p < 0.005). The intensity of venous retrograde flow correlated with the pulmonary artery pressure.

Conclusion.
Compared with healthy controls, COPDand PPH patients demonstrated a significantlygreater prevalence of IJVVI, which seems to be caused by the elevated central venous pressure. These patients may be at higher risk to develop central nervous system diseases related to cerebral outflow obstruction

Retrograde venous flow related to IJVV:

The frequency of internal jugular valve incompetence was significantly higher on the right side (36 [30.2%] of 119) than on the left (7 [6.4%] of 109; P < .0001). Retrograde venous flow due to incompetence of jugular valves was significantly more frequent at older ages (<50 years, 20%; and 50 years, 38.75%; P < .03) and was more frequent in men (33 [25%] of 132) than in women (10 [10.41%] of 96; P < .02). Conclusions. Air contrast ultrasonographic venography is a noninvasive method for evaluating internal jugular valves and identifying retrograde venous flow. This information may be useful in clinical and interventional care.

http://www.jultrasoundmed.org/cgi/content/full/21/7/747

Retrograde venous flow means the blood goes back up the jugular vein into the brain.

Do we need more studies? If so...let me know,
cheer

[malden]

How have these boards devolved in mere months?

Just fine, thank you.

Of course there is reflux and reversed flow in jugular veins. Venous blood flows upstream. Just look at medical papers. That's what we used to do around here-
This isn't even by Dr. Zamboni. It's referring to IJV reflux in transient global amnesia as related to jugular valve insufficiency per Dr. Chung.

I take a look at this papers, and all I see was a falsificates and nonsenses in pictures and according captations in function to push up nonsens hypotesys.

I'm sorry, but these CCSVI discussions began with a medical paper that was published in a peer-reviewed journal. Some people may not want to believe in venous insufficiency or reflux or reversed blood flow, but that doesn't make it so.
cheer

I am not beliver in venous insufficiency or reflux or reversed blood flow, my 10 yers education knowlege and 20 years praxis in hydraulic (hemodynamic is just one case of hydraulic) just don't let me be 'beliver' and I am MS suffer to... But I think that CCSVI treathment is not an answer for ours prays... It is just alibi for bloodsuckers. M.[/b]

[cheerleader]

Malden--
You have not linked not one study. Did you read the medical studies that show retrograde flow in jugular veins?
you are wrong--and rude, too.

Here are some more, regarding retrograde flow in valsalva manuevers:

Objective. Internal jugular valves are the only venous valves between the heart and the brain. Conditions such as coughing and other precipitating activities may result in retrograde cerebral venous flow because of the absence or presence of internal jugular valve incompetence, allowing brief transmission of high venous pressure and resulting in brain disturbance. Knowledge of these valves and their noninvasive evaluation might be useful in clinical practice.

http://www.jultrasoundmed.org/cgi/reprint/21/7/747.pdf

Now, I am done on this thread. There is retrograde flow in jugular veins, related to many different situations....COPD, IJJV, valsalva maneuvers. Dr. Zamboni discovered a new mode of jugular venous reflux with CCSVI.
And it's real,

cheer

[CCSVIhusband]

I've given up on responding to people of that ilk ... unfortunately some haven't - and for the ruin of the board/topics.

Let's just say I now KNOW first hand CCSVI is real, reflux is real, webs are real, improvements after (for the first time in YEARS) are real ...

So if they don't want to be on-board with CCSVI, I don't know why they even peruse this board, let alone why any intelligent person here responds to them ...

If we avoid their unsubstantiated claims, eventually they will either just spam the board and we will see what they truly are, or they will just go away.

My wife had an azygous "web". The web left nowhere for the blood to drain into the superior vena cava. Thus the blood DID reflux. That reflux through the azygous system (azygous/hemi-azygous/accessory hemi-azygous, lumbar vens) caused ... YOU GUESSED IT - MOVE TO THE HEAD OF THE CLASS - SPINAL LESIONS!

NOW the blood is flowing, ALMOST ALL OF HER SYMPTOMS ARE DISSIPATING DAILY.
* Numbness just in the very last of her toes now (was all the way up to the knees regularly - and groin on bad days).
* The feeling of muscles being clamped in a vice? Gone ...
* Balance? Well she can get dressed in the middle of a room one pants leg at a time. She ran on a treadmill for the first time in many many months (she runs outside all the time).
* L'hermitte's significanly reduced and going away.
* There are more improvements - too many to list actually ... but when you think of the azygous being stenosed and the iliac being stenosed with May-Thurner forcing leg blood up through the lumbar veins through the azygous system as an escape it actually significantly makes the situation all the worse. But luckily we knew of CCSVI and got this corrected while she was "new" to MS.

We actually suspect her May-Thurner (iliac vein) has re-stenosed - remember it was only angioplastied - due to some signals of that and talks with our doctor. But he is going to evaluate in short order and stent it if necessary (he wanted to try balloons first to see, but said it likely would need a stent).

Luckily we went local ... and this is no problem. (thanks Cheer)

But if you can tell me physical things done above are "placebo" or NOT RELATED TO MS - even though she's only had those things since slightly before her MS diagnosis, well then you're smarter than a lot of doctors ... (or else full of "it" and just flat out wrong). We can't wait to see what her Neuro says when she sees him in a few months (when we explain how her symptoms that were ALWAYS there, went away days after liberation) ... interesting. Go ahead, say CCSVI wasn't related though ...

It's amazing someone being better for the first time in YEARS can be questioned ...

But like I said, let's let them attack, try to dissuade, while the rest of us fine people get tested for and treated for CCSVI ... we'll see who ends up ahead in the end - and they'll be left on this board to themselves with few left to question CCSVI to, because everyone else will know.

Yep that was ALL "personal attacks" ... whatever, I don't care it's the TRUTH, unlike the fiction you guys spin in trying to push whatever your anti-CCSVI agenda is. How is working at Biogen these days, by the way? I used to have a buddy that worked there ...

[1eye]

Blood reflux in jugulars is caused by either suction from the brain (unlikely) or by the heart pump (tricuspid valve insufficiency) or by the heart pumping when it should be collecting (bad timing in the right heart) or by thoracic pumping. Blood gets back to the heart partly by muscles pushing it along, and sometimes the only way to go is up. Which one this is mostly I don't know. The thread started with a guy with MS but apparently no CCSVI.

I would think valves in jugulars are to prevent reflux. If gone, reflux makes it to the brain. But since less muscle pumping is required, due to gravity, might not have to work well.

This can be one very good reason that more research can help some people. MS happens. It can be horrible when it does. But it can also be benign. I'm not a doctor or a neurologist, but I do know that *now* I have not only CCSVI, but more than likely, also CVI. My non-cerebro-spinal chronic venous insufficiency is fairly recent, more likely due to my more recent start to using the wheelchair, also more harmful than just messing up my veins.

I am older and have also a heart condition. I have it in common with relatives, more on my mother's side. It is also vascular in nature. Though they may be related to my MS, there is no reason to think they are. MS still holds many mysteries, and we may never have the money to learn them all. Or we will. I don't know.

We do know that more major MS symptoms, like not being able to take a hot shower, like being weak and uncoordinated, unable to walk, stiff, dizzy, etc., all those thing we have seen both immediately and longer-term, in all "phenotypes" of MS (PP, RR, SP, etc.) are treatable with this procedure. Maybe not in me or you, but in most.

All of these, reportedly, are 'only' anecdotal. I am guessing; no-one has yet statistically 'proven' they are factual. But a *lot* of people, are making trips and spending money to get it done, assume they will be treatable. If they didn't continue to do that, treatment centres around the world would not find reasons to start up, let alone continue. It is not some magic substance you can only find in one part of the world. People do benefit, and sometimes treatment is enough to remove a DNR order.

I know, there's one born every minute, MS diminishes your mental strength too, etc., etc. I am not saying 50,000,000 flies can't all be wrong, so let's keep eating. What I am saying is, no group of people is that stupid, and this condition includes the most benign forms, that have no mental diminishment. MS may be, sometimes, caused by other things besides hypoxia, reflux, iron deposits. Maybe, sometimes, not even by vein issues.

I think we have entered an era where many new things, written about by Dr. Zamboni, and others, indicate serious troubles with venous blood. Liberation helps. It was not like Edison's discovery of the tungsten filament. A reasonable hypothesis was acted on, and proved be true, based on self-assessments. That kind of assessment might not have silenced skeptics, but most assuredly would have satisfied victims of this condition, from the earliest ones, to the present day.

It is only basic, reasonable, unassailable logic to say that a balanced, adequate flow of blood in all organs and all parts of the human body is requisite for good health. You may not want it, that is your right. But I do, I think that is my right. It may not in all people be easily measured defined, or maintained, but we should try our best.