This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

Really terrific write up on the discovery from Scientific American!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... tem-found/

cheer

interesting perspective on citizen science under the links below.

the discourse itself becomes subject to investigation. that is good.

I think the investigation should not just focus on patients and the layman but also include a quote ... cognitive dissonance reduction to protect oneself against... unquote in the quasi-monopoly of ACTRIMS/ECTRIMS to see whether there could have been is a systemic failure there...

http://www.jmir.org/2015/7/e159/?utm_so ... t=FaceBook

http://programme.esa12thconference.eu/presentation/4359

Leonard,
I do believe there was a predisposition to paint all activists for research into the vascular connection to MS as uneducated Facebook/YouTube laity. It made it easier to write off the reported anecdotal improvements as placebo, and ignore MRI evidence. But that's far from the reality. There has been a concerted effort by patients and caregivers to unite with researchers, by forming groups like CCSVI Alliance and NCS and supporting groups like the International Society for Neurovascular Disease (ISNVD), to further the discourse. These groups all include peer-reviewed and published scientists and doctors.

The next ISNVD conference will be in April 2016 at the Academy of Sciences in NYC, and should be an incredible meeting! What with the discovery of lymphatic vessels and more research on the brain's immune system and drainage---so much to learn. www.isnvd.org

Aaaaaannnnnddd....newly published research shows that lymphatic vessels need FLOW in order to develop correctly and function. This could imply that restricted venous drainage (as seen in CCSVI) could be stopping the brain's lymphatics from functioning. From the University of Pennsylvania, "Flow means Go for proper lymph system development. http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com/2015/07/n ... ns-go.html

cheer

Hi Cheer,

You're our resident expert on this stuff and I am just a dim observer. Is the debate leaning towards not enough capacity to flow or too much trying to flow through a normal channel ( whatever normal is)? If it's lack of capacity to flow it points one way and if its an excess of lymph then it points to inflammation as the main issue. I agree it could be both. Choosing one over the other leads to different outcomes.

Regards

Agree, Scott---too much lymph as opposed to too little would have different results in the brain. Dr. Jony Kipnis (discoverer of the lymph vessels) isn't sure if it's too much, or too little lymphatic flow---he's going to be doing more studies, as will other researchers.

Other recent work by Kipnis and colleagues found that an injury to the central nervous system results in a strong activation of T-cells in the deep cervical lymph nodes. Kipnis suspects that some compound may be released from the injured CNS that is transmitted to the deep cervical lymph nodes through lymphatic vessels where it activatesthe immune system. A similar scenario may be at work in other neurological conditions; that too much or too little drainage from the central nervous system to the immune system might contribute to brain disease. If so, Kipnis feels targeting the vessels with drugs, genetic manipulation and surgery are therapeutic approaches worth pursuing.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... tem-found/
The Un. of Pennsylvania research I linked showed that a reversal of blood flow in veins kept lymph from draining, and damaged lymph vessels in mice. We know venous reflux is part of CCSVI, so there will be more research on how CCSVI impacts the brain's immune system and lymphatics in the near future.

My gut feeling is that it's probably too little lymph flow, due to venous restrictions and endothelial dysfunction slowing down vessel drainage...but we really won't know for awhile. My other hunch is that this all ties in to the recent discovery of Dr. Maiken Nedergaard---the (g)lymphatic cleansing system that happens when we sleep which needs adequate drainage. But hunches aren't scientific evidence. I'm just an arm-chair observer, like everyone else around here It's taken a long time to discover the lymph system in the brain...let's hope it doesn't take as long to figure out how it works.
cheer

Dr. Arata balloons internal jugular veins not to treat a stenosis but to elicit a purely 'autonomic response' to achieve symptom improvement. Perhaps he is stimulating the glymphatic vessel that sits alongside the jugular and is increasing or decreasing lymphatic flow? Could an MRV be used to calculate lymph flow? Calling Dr. Haake . . . .

PN

Not really sure how Arata's ballooning without repairing venous flow would elicit continued lymph return, but there might be something there, PN. So much about the autonomic system to be learned! I still think it's probably best to get venous flow repaired.

In other parts of the body, if there is not adequate venous return due to chronic venous insufficiency (CVI), there is stress put on lymph vessels, and they stop functioning. The result is pretty bad in the legs, could be disasterous for the brain.

This pathological increase in pressure subsequently has an effect on the blood capillaries, and more fluid is filtered from the blood into the tissues. It is the lymphatic system’s responsibility to compensate for the increased amount of tissue fluid by increasing its activity; this is also known as the lymphatic safety function. If the lymphatic system, despite working to its maximum capacity, is not able to cope with the additional fluid, edema develops in the leg.

In the initial stages this swelling may recede with elevation and rest, but over time and without adequate treatment (compression, elevation, exercise), the constant strain on the lymphatic system may lead to damage to the lymphatic vessels, leading to reduction of its transport capacity. This condition, described as combined venous and lymphatic insufficiency, has serious consequences, and without treatment the symptoms associated with CVI and ambulatory venous hypertension will gradually worsen, and the condition will progress through the following stages.

http://www.lymphedemablog.com/2013/07/0 ... ic-system/

The ISNVD has published papers on how CCSVI in MS looks a lot like normal pressure hydrocephalus-
http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-d ... 26119.html

cheer

OK. If too much pressure due to backed-up venous drainage results in not enough lymph (or CSF, or whatever it is) available for daily brain flush during REM sleep that might explain one clear difference between me as an MS sufferer, and say my wife, who is not. I don't dream.

Can the venous (and CSF) pressure locally in various areas of brain and spine be instantaneously measured?

1eye wrote:Can the venous (and CSF) pressure locally in various areas of brain and spine be instantaneously measured?

Dr. Haake . . . Mr.1eye on . . Line 1

Unclog Lympth Sytem for Better Sleep

http://www.wellnessresources.com/health ... /lymph.php

Thoughts?

I could use better sleep AND relief from SPMS

Bump.

Will try these two:

http://www.wellnessresources.com/store/cart.php

PN

You can also take a look at this:
http://lifespa.com/amazing-benefits-of- ... left-side/

I have seen a suggestion that either side is better than on your back, but I cannot find it.
Personally, I usually sleep on my right side, but this is due to differences in shoulder and arm movement.

Geoff

Hi,

If the lymph is part of the response to inflammation then shouldn't adopting an anti-inflammatory diet and using appropriate anti-inflammatory supplements and medications and a lot of massage be central to any protocol?
I think I sleep on my left but I have no idea what I do during the night. There's no way I just lie there.

Regards

Scott1 wrote: If the lymph is part of the response to inflammation then shouldn't adopting an anti-inflammatory diet and using appropriate anti-inflammatory supplements and medications and a lot of massage be central to any protocol?
I think I sleep on my left but I have no idea what I do during the night. There's no way I just lie there.
Regards

I think it makes sense to take care of lymph vessels and the draining veins--lymph vessels and veins (and arteries) are all lined with endothelial cells, which are negatively affected by inflammation. Anti-inflammatory eating, supplements, exercise, lifestyle, massage can all maintain healthy vessels which supply and drain organs. Increasing EDRF (nitric oxide) will also help. http://www.ccsvi.org/index.php/helping- ... ial-health

As far as sleep positions---here's the recent research which came out of labs at the University of Rochester and Stony Brook on the benefit of lateral (side) sleeping for lymphatic drainage.

"It is interesting that the lateral sleep position is already the most popular in human and most animals -- even in the wild -- and it appears that we have adapted the lateral sleep position to most efficiently clear our brain of the metabolic waste products that built up while we are awake," says Dr. Maiken Nedergaard of the University of Rochester.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/sleeping-p ... -1.2504828
It appears that all of these new discoveries (on how the brain cleanses during sleep and the fact we DO have lymph and lymphatic vessels in the brain) continue to point to the importance of endothelial health and a healthy venous drainage system for the brain. All new info in the past 3 years. Pretty incredible.
cheer