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civickiller wrote:i asked because i have been seeing a ucc dr since january weekly. i have had 8 adjustments. my first 4 i felt an improvement, my last 4 there was no improvements. and its not me forgetting how i first was and saying no theres no improvement when there really was. i am a little better but no where near how i was feeling after getting adjusted. and my atlas is still going out of alignment. my right leg was pulling up 1/2 inch the first 3 visits then 1/4 inch for the last 5 visits. my lower back is hurting again, my heat intolerance is back.

so my question, have u guys ever had a patients atlas move out of alignment differently where you had to change the way you where making adjustments

i wasnt in any accidents or neck trauma of any kind

Dear civickiller,

What criteria is your upper cervical chiropractor using to determine when you need to be adjusted? i.e. Thermal Scanning? Leg Checks? Muscle testing? Neurological testing? Palpation of the vertebrae to be adjusted?

I ask because over adjusting can interfere with the healing process & not every UC Doc uses thermal scanning which in my opinion is the best way for determining if an adjustment is necessary. If your body is in an adaptive state, not cleared out but not locked in pattern, then an adjustment isn't necessary.

Adjusting the bone to where it would need to be adjusted from a different position is not something I've heard of before. Mostly in a situation like what you described it's usually the result of one or two things. 1) you are being over adjusted (i.e. Being adjusted too often) or 2) the chiropractor hasn't adjusted you properly the last few times you've seen him. There is a 3rd possibility that you are clear/adaptive but going through re-tracing. This happens rarely but when it does it can cause some old symptoms to act up or even exacerbate some existing symptoms but this is only temporary as your body goes through the healing process.

Mind you without seeing your scans or x-rays or knowing more about how it is being determined that you need to be adjusted I'm making my best educated guess here as to what is going on. This is why I like using thermal scanning because if the scan is showing that you are not in pattern then you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that an adjustment isn't necessary.

I know this is a long & detailed answer but I hope this clears things up for you. If you could elaborate more on what your chiropractor uses to determine if an adjustment is necessary as well as what UC Technique they are using it would be very helpful in further understanding how you are being cared for. Can you give us an example of what happens on a typical office visit and how you are being positioned when you get adjusted?

Have you voiced your concerns to your Chiropractor? If not I would highly suggest that you sit down and speak to him about them.

civickiller,

I thought you and others would find this blog post interesting and informative. It is from the blog The Atlas of Life http://theatlasoflife.com and answers frequently asked questions regarding Upper Cervical Chiropractic Care.

http://theatlasoflife.com/2010/12/27/fr ... ctic-care/

That blog has a lot of good information so you might even want to browse the rest of the site as you may also find answers to other questions there as well.

every office visit i lay on a table on my back and the dr measures the length of my legs by, putting my feet together and seeing if my right foot is pulling up more than my left. he usually tells me its off then i lay on another table on my right side with my head on something that keeps my spine aligned with my right arm under my body with my right shoulder down at my standing level. then he pushes on the left side of my neck down toward my feet about an inch below my left ear twisting towards my back alittle while pushing down, he does this about 5 or 6 times. i lay back on the first table and he measure again to check my leg lengths, and everytime he says their even and thats it

Hello Civickiller,
How long have you been on the LDN and at what dosage?

i started in Dec 2010, 3mg. that was the hard part because i started the ldn only a week before i started ucc so i dont know what was helping what.

civickiller wrote:every office visit i lay on a table on my back and the dr measures the length of my legs by, putting my feet together and seeing if my right foot is pulling up more than my left. he usually tells me its off then i lay on another table on my right side with my head on something that keeps my spine aligned with my right arm under my body with my right shoulder down at my standing level. then he pushes on the left side of my neck down toward my feet about an inch below my left ear twisting towards my back alittle while pushing down, he does this about 5 or 6 times. i lay back on the first table and he measure again to check my leg lengths, and everytime he says their even and thats it

In my opinion using leg length analysis as the only method for determining whether or not an adjustment is necessary is highly inadequate. By itself it doesn't show you how the nervous system is adapting and reacting to it's environment whereas thermal scanning does. I also use leg length analysis as an indicator but in conjunction with thermal scanning and I base my decisions more heavily off the thermal scanning than leg length discrepancies.

I find that if my patients scan appears to be pattern, which would mean they need to be adjusted, I err on the side of caution. When a patients scan appears to be pattern their legs are always unbalanced. When this is the case I have them lay down then check their leg length. I then have them rest for 10 to 15 minutes laying face up on the table. Afterwards I recheck their legs to see if they are balanced and also perform a 2nd thermal scan. If the first scan was indeed pattern I would see the same thing again and the legs would still be unbalanced If the first scan was a stress reading and in fact not pattern the thermal scan will reflect that after the rest and the imbalance in the legs will have balanced out or at least diminished meaning the patient does not need to be adjusted. This shows me that the body is still able to adapt to it's surrounding environment and any intervention on my part at that time would only interfere with the healing process.

I would highly recommend that you speak with your chiropractor to discuss your concerns about your progress. It sounds to me like you might be getting over adjusted. Next I would also suggest that if your chiropractor doesn't have a thermal scanning instrument that when he finds your legs are imbalanced, thus you needing an adjustment, that you ask him to allow you to lay there for 10 to 15 minutes then recheck your leg length. If your legs are balanced afterwards then there isn't any need for an adjustment. If they are still imbalanced then more than likely an adjustment is warranted.

Civickiller
You are on a fairly moderate dosage, which can build up and cause muscle and joint pain. On the other hand, sometimes it builds up and loses its effectiveness. Talk to you prescribing physician. Sometimes you need to give it a rest.

he does have a thermal scanner. he does know about my progress. when i go see him next wednesday, hes gonna do a full work up again and change whatevers needed

I dont think my neurologist knows that much about ldn because i had to tell her what dosage i wanted, she didnt recommend a dosage. how long do u think i should stop the ldn for? do you think changing dosage would help?

Hi, Dr. Flanagan. I don’t know if you’ll remember me, it’s been awhile. Both you and Dr. Koontz gave me advice when I first wrote to you. You asked me to keep you posted, so here’s what’s been going on. You knew I started seeing the upper cervical specialist you referred me to, Dr. Sondhi, in November, and I’m still seeing him. I had a tentative appointment for the angioplasty procedure in mid-December. I had wanted to pursue one thing at a time, but I didn’t want to pass up the appointment. I talked to Dr. Sondhi, and he told me his treatments would not help my MS symptoms, so I decided to go ahead with the procedure. I had it done just before Christmas. It turns out I have hypoplasia. You were right-on when you talked about my genetic issues. I told you when I first wrote to you that I suspected my late mom had the same thing I have. Apparently my veins were a mess. I started getting new symptoms after the procedure, and I was worse for the first few weeks. I’m still not back to where I was before the procedure, but it’s better than it was. Some days are better than others.
I’m very disappointed, but I had to try.
I intended to keep you updated, and I’m sorry I’m late with that. I felt crappy and was depressed. I wasn’t even following the sites, decided to give MS/CCSVI a rest.
I plan to continue seeing Dr. Sondhi as he treats my spine misalignment. He didn’t think the angioplasty procedure would work, but he’s actually been supportive. When I saw him after the procedure and told him I was worse, he said to wait, it was an invasive procedure, and I needed time to heal. If nothing else, he says he can fix my posture.
By the way, I bought your book a few weeks ago. I haven’t read it yet, but I plan to.

Civickiller,

Talk to your neuro about stopping or decreasing your dosage first. Apparently, some people only need to stop for a couple of days as it appears to be eliminated from the system fairly quickly via the kidneys. The fact that it exits primarily through the kidneys probably irritates them, and the kidneys, low back and legs are all closely connected.

It's good that the chiro will completely reevaluate what he is doing on your next visit. Make sure he knows about the LDN, however, as it may be part of the problem. His checks should let him know if he is on target.

Hello Kathyrn333,
I do remember your case and your family history and included it in my retrospective analysis. Thanks for getting back to me.
Because of your signs, symptoms and family history I put you in the migraine and circulatory category. I am sorry to hear that things didn't go well with the venoplasty. Did you have any improvements with upper cervical care before the venoplasy?

Kathryn333,
I went back through your family and personal history. You are different than your uncle, grandfather and cousin. They had issues with high blood pressure and diabetes. You have low blood pressure. You also have posture and cervical problems that further impede blood flow through the vertebral- basilar arteries so you get a double whammy which decreases blood flow to the brain. While it is highly unlikely that your multiple lesions will disappear as the problem has been going on for over thirty years now, upper cervical care should still help considerably with blood flow through the vertebral arteries. In your case every little bit helps. Adjustments will also help reposition the brain better inside the cranial vault and take the stress off the brainstem and cord circulatory routes.

Hi Dr's I have a question for each of you.
If a vertebra goes out of alignment not necessarily regular but more when it does go out, is it often the same position of misalignment. I am assuming if yes it is due to damage or repair malformation of the disc material? I had the original thought that the muscles dictate the misalignment then I realized that the disc material and inflammation and repair could misalign the spine.
The second question is regarding the blood flow into the brain, which if restricted will compound any restriction issues for the veins. I take it that flow in and flow out will be interdependent. If a person has low BP as I do and mis alignments as I do and vein malformations and flow restrictions and back flow (which I don't know if I do) there will be need for a multi skills approach and plan for improving the entire situation?
When my life gets back on track and I win Lotto I intend to follow this approach!
Regards everyone,
Nigel

uprightdoc wrote:Hello Kathyrn333,
I do remember your case and your family history and included it in my retrospective analysis. Thanks for getting back to me.
Because of your signs, symptoms and family history I put you in the migraine and circulatory category. I am sorry to hear that things didn't go well with the venoplasty. Did you have any improvements with upper cervical care before the venoplasy?

Hi, Dr. Flanagan. Thank you for the responses. To answer your question, Dr. Sondhi felt the adjustment was holding. I can’t say I noticed any difference, but I do understand it takes time. I had nine adjustments prior to going for the venoplasty. It was when I talked to Dr. Sondhi and he said his treatment wouldn’t improve my MS symptoms that I decided to go ahead with the procedure.
I am continuing the upper cervical treatments. When I started my treatments were three times a week, and now my schedule is down to once a month.

civickiller wrote:he does have a thermal scanner. he does know about my progress. when i go see him next wednesday, hes gonna do a full work up again and change whatevers needed

civickiller,

It is good that he has a thermal scanner but he really should be taking the time to use it on you every visit not just on re-exams for the reasons I've already explained. As Dr. Flanagan has brought up you do need to take in to consideration the medicine you are on and whether or not it has something to do with the exacerbation of your symptoms. Regarding the day you go back for your re-exam, if your chiropractor hasn't already mentioned these following things to you I'd suggest you follow these guidelines before going in:

Avoid the following before each and every office visit that a thermal scan will be performed:

6 hours before your appointment: NO DRUGS of any kind which include, but are not limited to, antibiotics, antidepressants, pain relievers (example: Aspirin, Advil, Tylenol, Aleve)

2 hours before your appointment: NO caffeine, cigarettes, chocolate, or use of a heating pad or cream on your neck or back.

30 minutes before your appointment: NO sugar or candy.


The above listed things have an effect on the nervous system and as such will alter the readings taken during the thermal scan preventing your chiropractor from getting an accurate picture of how you are responding to the care.