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Sorry to butt in here, I haven't read any of this thread. Mainly because I have a phobia of needles (and a wider phobia of all things medical) so the idea of donating blood, well, it's just unthinkable!

But I am, and have been, anaemic, for many years. And my MS has been really aggressive. So I wonder, is that relevant at all? I have been lacking in iron lots but it doesn't seem to have helped my MS.

L wrote:Sorry to butt in here, I haven't read any of this thread. Mainly because I have a phobia of needles (and a wider phobia of all things medical) so the idea of donating blood, well, it's just unthinkable!

But I am, and have been, anaemic, for many years. And my MS has been really aggressive. So I wonder, is that relevant at all? I have been lacking in iron lots but it doesn't seem to have helped my MS.

Hi L, Have you been supplementing iron over that time to try and build up your levels?

L
might be worth getting your copper levels checked (ceruloplasmin, serum, and RBC)---
are you SURE your anemia is from iron deficiency? Quite often it is from copper deficiency (need copper for iron use). (and you can be deficient in both iron AND copper).

Despite the 100 mg of Zinc per day supplement, clearly do not absorb it--mentioned the low zinc lab results above, and today, (after upping my Zinc now to 150 per day for past few days), tood the Thorne zinc sufate taste taste--could taste NOTHING!
Will research for the most absorbable zinc and get that. (And I have been dividing my zinc into 50 mg three times a day--will now go to 4 times).

That's it, many Drs. are not up on iron metabolism and regularly give out iron pills as a fix. The fact that many still can't seem to get there levels up points to a different problem. My irons are low-normal now, yet my hemoglobin stays high. Hct and hemoglobin are also iron pointers.
My body has no trouble making red blood cells therefore I have plenty of iron available. What's your hct and hemoglobin like L?

yes L
and also might be worth getting the full iron panel done (as well as the usual CBC which would have the hemoglobin and hematocrit levels)--drs usually don't do the panel--with that you get the total iron, and the parameters that show the storage and the circulating iron. With all these tests together,get a fuller picture re: what might, or might not, be the iron problem--and then can move on to things that affect iron level, like copper levels.

Thanks everyone.

No, all this time I had no iron supplements. I'm a vegan who doesn't eat broccoli Well, almost a vegan. There was pretty much no iron in my diet.

I was having bouts of tachycardia - a fast heart rate. Caffeine and alcohol made it more likely it seemed.

This got worse a couple of times when I tried agents which chelate iron. Really terrible actually. Green tea never brought on problems, neither did horse chestnut. IP6 was dreadful and Milk Thistle was even worse (I conclude that these two are very effective chelators of iron.)

Then I put two and two together. Both caffeine and alcohol (in moderate amounts) chelate iron. That was quite a long time ago now, quite a few months ago.

Now I have a big handful of pistachios (high iron content) with a vitamin C tablet daily. No more tachycardia, ever. I'm absolutely fine with caffeine and alcohol. Since I realised that I was anaemic I have had no problems, except for once when I hadn't bothered with the vitamin C + pistachio nuts for a week.

So, I conclude, that a low iron level in the blood doesn't correlate with the iron level in the brain. But that's only a guess of course.

Perhaps if I could have persevered with iP6 (which crosses the blood brain barrier but I don't think that Milk Thistle does) things would be different. So my ill informed advice would be, take iP6 and see what happens.

I was going to get my iron levels tested, I even got a blood test form from my GP, but I thought that there was no point since I now supplement my diet and my symptoms disappear as long as I continue to do so.

L says

with iP6 (which crosses the blood brain barrier

Does it? Have never seen any report of this. If you have a source for this info, please post....thanks

hiya folks, just wanted to chime in re hemoglobin 119.. klenner protocol specifies minimum 13 g. which if we make some assumptioms about units, looks like in this case the target ought to be 130. if you credit klenner

My hemoglobin was was 119 (reference range 120-150)

if any readers have not already seen the msrc's posted info on the zinc taste test, here's a link:
http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseact ... pageid=653
lots of detail.

re folate, my doc always checks RBC folate when we look at ferritin etc.

i take a b complex daily as part of my supplement routine. the klenner protocol recommends 100mg of a good chunk of the complex at mealtimes and bedtime. when i was on that regimen i regained a lot of funtion.

afterwards i stayed on the b complex but once i bought a different brand with folic acid 1000 vs previous 400 (400 is the recommended daily intake).

i began to experience itching in my forearms that i couldn't scratch. i looked around for what might have changed in my intakes and the folic acid was the main thing. i had my levels checked and were way high.

i switched my b-complex and the itch went away never to return.

hope that is useful for anyone supplementing folic acid.

possibly of interest:

•Impaired absorption
◦The limiting factor in folate absorption is its transport across the intestinal wall. Folate transport across the gut wall mainly is carrier mediated, saturable, substrate specific, pH dependent (optimal at low pH), sodium dependent, and susceptible to metabolic inhibitors. Passive, diffusional absorption also occurs, to a minor degree. With this in mind, a decreased absorptive area due to small bowel resection or mesenteric vascular insufficiency would decrease folate absorption.

speaking of the intestinal wall, ms has links to leaky gut syndrome. zinc is useful to help repair the intestinal wall in said syndrome. (search forums for posts containing the phrase 'tight junction' and zinc).

zinc also lowers pH. and low zinc is also implicated in venous insufficiency (search early in the CCSVI forum for posts by me containing the words zinc and venous).

FYI recommended zinc intake for ms patients is 25-50 mg / d. see signature links (direct and msrc in particular) for more info
average serum zinc in healthy controls is 18.2 umol/L. mid to low teens in ms patients.

re zinc absorption and histidine, i just did some reading on that the other day. best food sources of histidine, other than beluga whale, bearded seal, venison, or boar, appear to be things like beef and pork. which also happen to be decent sources of zinc. this may be one reason why the best bet diet recommends one serving of red meat per week. (i have no idea if this is enough, but i do know that i probably eat more than that and my zinc levels are usually good)

m, zinc intake boosts glutathione, just an interesting FYI. ran across that tidbit some time back re copaxone or something.

here's one abstract...

J Nutr. 1981 Jun;111(6):1098-102.

Effect of zinc deficiency on blood glutathione levels.
Mills BJ, Lindeman RD, Lang CA.

Abstract
The specific effect of zinc deficiency on blood glutathione (GSH) concentrations has not been clearly demonstrated, for earlier results could have been due to differences in dietary intake. To clarify this, we determined blood GSH concentrations over a 17-day period in young, mature rats fed a zinc-deficient diet and compared them with pair-fed controls. Glutathione concentrations based on hemoglobin content increased in both groups but a different rates. After 17 days, the GSH levels increased 20% in deficient rats and 29% in control rats (P less than 0.005). The GSH levels in deficient rats were 11% lower than in controls by 10 days (P less than 0.025) and remained significantly lower thereafter. These results indicate that the decrease in blood GSH levels was a specific result of zinc deficiency.

rats, yes. but still interesting