all things vitamin D

[jimmylegs]

ok it sounds like i'm just mixing up units for calcium.
personally, i gave up supplemental calcium almost 20 years ago. every time i tried it, i interpreted the side effect as kidney pain. so calcium supplements didn't last long. I definitely prioritize healthy food sources.
i think calcium supplements do have their place, but i also have the impression they've been overused - especially relative to magnesium intake.
personally, alongside my most recent 3000IU/d D3, the supplemental mag is up to 900mg/d these days. probably could stand to up the glycinate in that mix overall; levels are still not as high as i'd like.
hopefully everyone can strike their best balance!

[DIM]

Isn't Magnesium Threonate (magtein) the best form for MSers?

[jimmylegs]

so far, I don't think I've seen research that would convince me. doesn't mean it won't happen, but so far it hasn't.

[NHE]

Isn't Magnesium Threonate (magtein) the best form for MSers?

Magnesium threonate is a formulation that’s readily taken up by the brain. It’s been found to increase synaptogenesis.

See... viewtopic.php?p=262319#p262319

MgGlycinate didn’t raise CSF Mg2+ significantly vs controls.

However, dietary Mg2+ had the largest beneficial effect on behavior.

[ElliotB]

There are many different types of magnesium. Each type offers different health benefits. I could not figure out which type was best for me. So, I decided to take most of them in small amounts rather than limit myself only to one or two types, which I have been doing for several years.

It turns out, most people are deficient in magnesium. According to a review article published in the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health, the vast majority of people in modern societies are at risk for magnesium deficiency due to chronic diseases, medications, decreases in food crop magnesium contents, and the availability of refined and processed foods1. Another reason why we’re deficient in magnesium is because our soil is deficient in magnesium “virtually everywhere”

Magnesium used to be readily available in water as well, but not so much anymore for a number of reasons including filtration. High quality water filters remove magnesium and other minerals while removing impurities. I have a RO system that has a remineralization filter which adds them back into the water. Most RO filters do not.

I also drink distilled water and manually add back minerals by adding about 1/4 teaspoon of pink Himalayan pink salt per gallon and a half of distilled water.

This article offers a lot of good information about all the various sorts of magnesium:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... -magnesium

[NHE]

I took 5000 IU/day for about a year. My spasticity became much worse. I would have whole body spasms about every 30 min. I had my D3 tested. It was 91.8 ng/mL! I took a month off and then went to 5000 IU/wk. I've been at this dosage for 5 months. It's time to get retested again.

My blood test results came back. D3 was 44.2 ng/mL (110 nmol/L). This is more rational. My spasms have mellowed out. I still get the occasional spasm, but now it’s about once or twice per day not every 30 minutes!

I had RBC Mg tested as well. It was 5.1 mg/dL. The range was given as 4.2-6.8 mg/dL.

[NHE]

I took 5000 IU/day for about a year. My spasticity became much worse. I would have whole body spasms about every 30 min. I had my D3 tested. It was 91.8 ng/mL! I took a month off and then went to 5000 IU/wk. I've been at this dosage for 5 months. It's time to get retested again.

My blood test results came back. D3 was 44.2 ng/mL (110 nmol/L). This is more rational. My spasms have mellowed out. I still get the occasional spasm, but now it’s about once or twice per day not every 30 minutes!

Dr Josh Trutt from New York discusses vitamin E, curcumin and vitamin D. He reviews research that found a reverse J shaped curve for vitamin D and all cause mortality. In effect, at both low and high levels of vitamin D3 all cause mortality is increased. The minimum in the mortality curve is at a vitamin D level of about 40 ng/mL.

Here's a recording of Dr Trutt's webinar.

https://c.gmx.com/@675593861115943341/L ... 0cQZ8-RJ0g

[jimmylegs]

Method validation for a greener approach to the quantification of 25-hydroxy vitamin D3 in patient serum using supported liquid extraction and liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/ ... -0444/html

i wonder how this one will pan out?

[NHE]

Here are some additional thoughts on optimal vitamin D level from ConsumerLab.com.

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https://www.consumerlab.com/reviews/vit ... -mortality

• What does vitamin D do? There are many reasons to make sure you're getting sufficient vitamin D: These include improved bone health, reduced risk of heart attack and stroke, reduced risk of asthma and allergy, reduced inflammation, and perhaps others. Not surprisingly, over given periods of time there are fewer deaths among people who have the right amount of vitamin D compared to those who have too little or too much. For details, see What It Does.

• How much vitamin D do I need? You may already get enough vitamin D from the sun (about 15 minutes to the face, arms, and hands at least twice a week without sunscreen) and the foods you normally eat. The recommended daily allowance is 15 mcg (600 IU) for teens and adults, going to 20 mcg (800 IU) for those over age 70. If you're not sure, get your blood level checked by your doctor. A total serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D level of at least 20 ng/mL (equivalent to 50 nmol/L) is considered "sufficient," although there may be additional benefit to being in the 25 to 35 ng/mL range. Don't exceed 39 ng/mL. Be aware that people who are Black generally have lower total vitamin D levels than whites, but research suggests these lower levels may be sufficient for Blacks.

• Which vitamin D supplement is best? Among the vitamin D supplements that CL tested and Approved for Quality (see What CL Found), CL selected Top Picks based quality, dosage, price, and convenience of use. These include Top Picks for vitamin D-only supplements, as well as vitamin D in combination with calcium, magnesium, vitamin K, and/or boron.

• When to take vitamin D: Take vitamin D supplements with your biggest meal of the day (the one that contains most fats and oils) as this can increase absorption by as much as 50%! For details, see Take Vitamin D with Food.

• How much vitamin D should I take? For every 1 ng/mL increase, you'll need to get an additional 100 IU of vitamin D per day (obese individuals may require double the amount, and if you already have an adequate level, enzymes in your body act to make it harder to raise it). For example, if your blood level is 18 ng/mL, taking 1,000 IU of vitamin D daily (or 1,600 IU if you are obese) should get you to about 28 ng/mL. It can take 6 weeks to reach the peak. Keep taking the vitamin D to stay at that level. The tolerable upper intake level (UL) of vitamin D for teens and adults, above which there is increased risk of toxicity, is 100 mcg (4,000 IU).

• Don't overdo it! Vitamin D safety and side effects: Studies show that people with the highest levels of vitamin D actually tend to have more bone fractures, fall more frequently, sleep less well, and die sooner than those with lower, but sufficient, levels. If your level is over 20 ng/mL, you probably don't need a supplement. If your level is above 35 ng/mL, taking a supplement may be doing more harm than good, so consider cutting back.

[NHE]

Here’s another reason to be careful with high doses of vitamin D3. Even levels around 53 ng/mL can lead to lower bone mineral density.

High dose vitamin D3 trial found lower bone density.

Effect of High-Dose Vitamin D Supplementation on Volumetric Bone Density and Bone Strength: A Randomized Clinical Trial.
JAMA. 2019 Aug 27;322(8):736-745.

Importance: Few studies have assessed the effects of daily vitamin D doses at or above the tolerable upper intake level for 12 months or greater, yet 3% of US adults report vitamin D intakes of at least 4000 IU per day.

Objective: To assess the dose-dependent effect of vitamin D supplementation on volumetric bone mineral density (BMD) and strength.

Design, Setting, and Participants: Three-year, double-blind, randomized clinical trial conducted in a single center in Calgary, Canada, from August 2013 to December 2017, including 311 community-dwelling healthy adults without osteoporosis, aged 55 to 70 years, with baseline levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25[OH]D) of 30 to 125 nmol/L.

Interventions: Daily doses of vitamin D3 for 3 years at 400 IU (n = 109), 4000 IU (n = 100), or 10 000 IU (n = 102). Calcium supplementation was provided to participants with dietary intake of less than 1200 mg per day.

Main Outcomes and Measures: Co-primary outcomes were total volumetric BMD at radius and tibia, assessed with high resolution peripheral quantitative computed tomography, and bone strength (failure load) at radius and tibia estimated by finite element analysis.

Results: Of 311 participants who were randomized (53% men; mean [SD] age, 62.2 [4.2] years), 287 (92%) completed the study. Baseline, 3-month, and 3-year levels of 25(OH)D were 76.3, 76.7, and 77.4 nmol/L for the 400-IU group; 81.3, 115.3, and 132.2 for the 4000-IU group; and 78.4, 188.0, and 144.4 for the 10 000-IU group. There were significant group × time interactions for volumetric BMD. At trial end, radial volumetric BMD was lower for the 4000 IU group (-3.9 mg HA/cm3 [95% CI, -6.5 to -1.3]) and 10 000 IU group (-7.5 mg HA/cm3 [95% CI, -10.1 to -5.0]) compared with the 400 IU group with mean percent change in volumetric BMD of -1.2% (400 IU group), -2.4% (4000 IU group), and -3.5% (10 000 IU group). Tibial volumetric BMD differences from the 400 IU group were -1.8 mg HA/cm3 (95% CI, -3.7 to 0.1) in the 4000 IU group and -4.1 mg HA/cm3 in the 10 000 IU group (95% CI, -6.0 to -2.2), with mean percent change values of -0.4% (400 IU), -1.0% (4000 IU), and -1.7% (10 000 IU). There were no significant differences for changes in failure load (radius, P = .06; tibia, P = .12).

Conclusions and Relevance: Among healthy adults, treatment with vitamin D for 3 years at a dose of 4000 IU per day or 10 000 IU per day, compared with 400 IU per day, resulted in statistically significant lower radial BMD; tibial BMD was significantly lower only with the 10 000 IU per day dose. There were no significant differences in bone strength at either the radius or tibia. These findings do not support a benefit of high-dose vitamin D supplementation for bone health; further research would be needed to determine whether it is harmful.

[DIM]

Vit. K2 and Calcium (magnesium too) is necessary for the vit. D3 in order to increase the bone density.
This research doesn't mention about K2-Calcium at all.

https://josr-online.biomedcentral.com/a ... 21-02728-4
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11180916/

[NHE]

Vit. K2 and Calcium (magnesium too) is necessary for the vit. D3 in order to increase the bone density.
This research doesn't mention about K2-Calcium at all.

Yes, it's probably best to take K2 and MgGlycinate with your D3. Still, I think a D3 level above 50-60 ng/mL is likely too high especially with my experience with spasticity. You can get both vitamin K and Mg from dark leafy greens. The body will convert some of that K to K2 though extra may still be good. K2 will also help keep calcium from plating out in your arteries and veins. This is by activating the matrix-GLA protein.

Regression of warfarin-induced medial elastocalcinosis by high intake of
vitamin K in rats

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17138823

[Jaded]

Thanks for all this info. I can't remember why I didn't come back earlier to see your comments.

It is all so complicated isn't it? And we are all different. I need to see my GP about possibly taking some meds to help bone density. Or maybe some calcium tablets.

I've started doing some weights at the gym due to the osteoporosis and osteopenia - I wish someone had told me to start doing weights earlier because my legs feel a lot stronger and balance is improving. Resistance (with bands) is not the same at all.


J

[NHE]

Hi Jaded,

Thanks for all this info. I can't remember why I didn't come back earlier to see your comments.

It is all so complicated isn't it? And we are all different. I need to see my GP about possibly taking some meds to help bone density. Or maybe some calcium tablets.

I've started doing some weights at the gym due to the osteoporosis and osteopenia - I wish someone had told me to start doing weights earlier because my legs feel a lot stronger and balance is improving. Resistance (with bands) is not the same at all.

There are two types of cells that remodel bone, osteoblasts and osteoclasts. Osteoblasts lay down new bone material while osteoclasts remove it. Both are needed for healthy bone remodeling and healing. The bisphosphonate drugs increase bone density by inhibiting the osteoclasts. Sometimes this can lead to denser bone which isn't healthy. That's why the prescribing information for these drugs warn about possible jaw and femur problems.

Fosamax: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatf ... 017lbl.pdf

[Jaded]

Thanks NHE

Are there any alternatives?

J