Dr Robert Lustig on fats

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet
Post Reply
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by NHE »

Dr Robert Lustig discusses the different classes of fats.

ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

Sorry to say this but some of his comments are inaccurate, especially with regard to omega 3s. Apparently, this video is a short summary of a longer, more complete video. Too much basic information has unfortunately been omitted which ends up presenting inaccurate information.

There are so many good sources of omega 3, much more than he references. PLUS there are many, many, many excellent VEGAN sources as well. EPA and DHA are readily available for vegans. It is strange that he does not mention them or acknowledge that they even exist, he actually implies/states directly that they are simply not available.

For anyone not taking any omega 3 supplement and/or consuming a diet high in omega 3s, you should do some research on the topic.

To those concerned about EPA and DHA profiles of the types of omega 3 you add to your die through supplements, pay attention to supplement's nutritional label. Most omega three supplements are high in DHA. Heart patients will likely do best if using supplements high in EPA.

My suggestion is to eat foods high in omega 3s and also supplement with appropriate supplements that have your preferred DHA EPA balance. This is what I do. I consume only foods high in omega 3s, both vegan and protein based and take numerous omega three supplements that are high in EPA. I take leave nothing to chance.

One of the best vegan sources of ALA omega 3s is ground up flax seeds. I consume about 4-6 tablespoons or more a day in a smoothie. Flax seed oil supplements are readily available in capsule form and easy to take.

Vegan Omega 3 supplements are plentiful. Just do an internet search for "vegan omega 3".

Typical foods high in Omega 3 fatty acids:
NOTE: Only wild caught fish and seafood are high in omega 3s, their farm raised equivalents are not. Anyone here should absolutely not consume farm raised fish and seafood IMHO (IMHO, farm raised fish and seafood should be avoided by everyone). Grass fed meats that are 100% grass fed raised and finished (meaning animals that are never fed grains) and pasture raised poultry are also high in omega 3s. Grain fed proteins of any kind should be avoided.


NOTE: This list includes both 'regular' and vegan sources of omega 3 fatty acids.


1. Salmon
2. Mackerel
3. Cod Liver Oil
4. Herring
5. Oysters
6. Sardines
7. Anchovies
8. Caviar
9. Ground Flaxseeds (high in omega 3s sourced from ALA)
10. Chia Seeds
11. Walnuts
12. Soybeans
13. Algae
14. Purslane
15. Hemp Seeds
16. Halibut
17. Trout
18. Tuna
19. Brussels Sprout
20. Winter Squash
21. Grass fed meat such as beef, lamb, goat, venison, etc. are all high in omega 3s. Certain other proteins such as pork and pasture raised poultry for example are available with high omega 3s nutritional benefits. You typically will not find these at your local supermarket, and yes they are a bit more expensive than the products you buy in a supermarket.

OMEGA 3 supplements are readily available and highly affordable.
Last edited by ElliotB on Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:54 am, edited 4 times in total.
ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

EPA is considered to be the most important of the omega-3 fatty acids to reduce cellular inflammation and for heart health.

The increased spatial territory swept out by DHA helps make certain areas of membranes more fluid and lipoprotein particles larger. Both EPA and DHA are equally effective in reducing triglyceride levels.

Do your research to help you decide what forms you think you should take!

This is one of the omega 3 supplements I take and have been taking it for about 5 years (non vegan) made from . I switched to this one because I had a minor heart issue - this supplement was formulated by a famous cardiologist:

https://www.healthydirections.com/produ ... -vitalisea
ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

The omega-3 fatty acid [EPA]that may improve heart health:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... ar-events/
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by NHE »

ElliotB wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:53 am NOTE: This list includes both 'regular' and vegan sources of omega 3 fatty acids.

1. Salmon
2. Mackerel
3. Cod Liver Oil
4. Herring
5. Oysters
6. Sardines
7. Anchovies
8. Caviar
9. Ground Flaxseeds (extremely high in omega 3s and ALA)
10. Chia Seeds
11. Walnuts
12. Soybeans
13. Algae
14. Purslane
15. Hemp Seeds
16. Halibut
17. Trout
18. Tuna
19. Brussels Sprout
20. Winter Squash
21. Grass fed meat such as beef, lamb, goat, venison, etc. are all high in omega 3s. Certain other proteins such as pork and pasture raised poultry for example are available with high omega 3s nutritional benefits. You typically will not find these at your local supermarket, and yes they are a bit more expensive than the products you buy in a supermarket.
Thanks for the list. However, Robert Lustig was correct. Plants do have omega-3 fatty acids, but only ALA. Plant based sources do not contain EPA and DHA. These are made by plankton which leads to their high concentration in marine animals. EPA and DHA are also found in Mammals as we we can convert a limited amount of the ALA we consume into EPA and DHA via the delta-6-desaturase enzyme. Please see the book Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill by Udo Erasmus.

https://www.amazon.com/Fats-That-Heal-K ... 920470386/

Please see these other sites for additional references.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/the- ... tty-acids/

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/dh ... what-it-is

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Omega ... fessional/
ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

For best results, a variety of sources for many supplements is a good idea. I follow this approach for several supplements I take, including but not limited to Omega 3s and magnesium (there are 11 different types of magnesium and I take almost all of them). With regard to Omega 3s, I take regular Omega 3 supplements (calamari based) and also have flax and chia seeds in a smoothy daily and have been for years specifically because of their ALA content (which the body converts to EPA and DHA although the process is not very efficient unfortunately). Plus, I eat only grass fed meats and wild caught fish and seafood which are all high in omega 3s [on a daily basis]. Omega 3 fatty acids and ALA are so important for good health, especially for those of us with MS. My overall health is excellent, and the only progression I have is progressive improvement (I am 65 years old, diagnosed a bit over 10 years ago and doing great overall).

The bottom line is that the source of the omega 3 may not be as important and just having omega 3 fatty acids in your diet. Few will disagree that omega 3s are a very important part of a healthy diet. Depending on some of your health issues, you may need to select an omega 3 supplement based on its ratio of DHA to EPA. For people with certain health concerns, a supplement with more of one form over the other may be warranted. Best to ask your doctor or nutritionist.

Not all omega 3 supplements are equal. Read the nutrition label and do some online research. Avoid supplements that don't break down the amount of EPA and DHA in milligrams. You really need to know what those values are and what is best for your individual health concerns. And you need to know what is the best balance for you.

ALSO, as NHE mentioned, EPA and DHA may not readily available in plant-based forms of omega 3. Vegan omega 3 supplements are typically labeled as being plant based, yet many of those may actually made from algae which is technically not a plant. In spite of the labels being marked "Sustainably sourced from renewable plants", they are really not sourced from plants.  There is nothing wrong with that, but algae are not actually a plant. Good for you? Definitely, but not really a plant. From a google search: Marine algae, also known as seaweed, are a group of species from the Protista kingdom that fall into three distinct groups: Brown Algae (Phaeophyta), Green Algae (Chlorophyta), and Red Algae (Rhodophyta) 1. Although they may look like underwater plants, seaweeds are not plants at all. They use chlorophyll for photosynthesis like plants and have plant-like cell walls, but they do not have roots or internal vascular systems, nor do they produce seeds or flowers 1.

Ultimately there is very little regulation in the supplement industry. You need to read the labels and do research.

Something to keep in mind is that foods that are high in ALA are great to consume, BUT our bodies do a poor job of converting ALA into DHA and EPA. So, taking additional supplements that are high in DHA and EPA is probably a good idea - I do.
ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

Interestingly a neighbor of mine told me yesterday that her 4 year old grandson was just diagnosed with ADHD (attention deficit disorder). I decided to look up recommended diets for those with ADHD. The recommendations from some experts are no surprise, NO sugar plus a diet rich in Omega 3s were at the top of the list.

Omega 3 is ALWAYS being recommended for good health. Especially for those of us with MS.
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by NHE »

ElliotB wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:43 amSomething to keep in mind is that foods that are high in ALA are great to consume, BUT our bodies do a poor job of converting ALA into DHA and EPA. So, taking additional supplements that are high in DHA and EPA is probably a good idea - I do.
This is exactly what Dr Lustig correctly stated in his video.
ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

Yes he does, but he doesn't clarify that there are MANY good plant-based omega 3 sources in supplement form high in EPA and DHA readily available for vegans other than in the form of ALA omega 3 (FWIW, I have been taking an ALA supplement for years in addition to my regular omega 3 supplement plus I eat only proteins that are high in omega 3 (beef, poultry, fish, pork, seafood (an no, you won't find these typically in your local supermarkets)) and have also been consuming ground flax and chia for years specifically because they are high in omega 3. And while they typically come from algae, the source ultimately is irrelevant because it is a vegan source. EPA and DHA are without a doubt available in vegan forms. And there are many of them to choose from and they are not that expensive. He simply does not clearly state this. He erroneously states that you can only get these two types of omega 3 from fish. My point originally and now is simply that his statements are confusing.

I also personally have added numerous supplements that are harvested from the ocean, brown and red seaweed (in capsule form), dulce, chlorella/spirulina and a couple more as well. Since life on this planet originated from the oceans, to me it makes sense to consume nutrients from the ocean. I have fish and seafood (ONLY wild caught, NEVER farm raised) several times a week.
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by NHE »

ElliotB wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2023 10:21 am Yes he does, but he doesn't clarify that there are MANY good plant-based omega 3 sources in supplement form high in EPA and DHA readily available for vegans
This statement is still incorrect. Plants only make ALA. They don't produce EPA and DHA.
NIH wrote:ALA is present in plant oils, such as flaxseed, soybean, and canola oils [3]. DHA and EPA are present in fish, fish oils, and krill oils, but they are originally synthesized by microalgae, not by the fish. When fish consume phytoplankton that consumed microalgae, they accumulate the omega-3s in their tissues [3].
See the NIH's list of food sources of omega-3s for a description of the different omega-3s found in various food items.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Omega ... sional/#h3

ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing that out and correcting me.

Yet, the supplement industry, which is vastly unregulated, refers to algae derived omega 3 supplements as 'plant based' omega 3. Algae is definitely not a plant.

More importantly, they are able to extract DHA and EPA from the algae and offer these two very important forms of omega 3 in easy to buy and take supplements in high concentrations. So, vegans can readily get high doses of EPA and DHA omega 3s they really should be taking if they want to.

From those much wiser than me on the internet:
Marine Algae are organisms that are able to carry out the process of photosynthesis. They live in aquatic environments, mainly in the sea, but some species can be found in freshwater. Marine algae are not plants, but a group of species from the Protista kingdom that fall into three distinct groups: Brown Algae, Green Algae, and Red Algae. Marine algae includes the largely invisible and often unicellular microalgae, which together with cyanobacteria form the ocean phytoplankton, as well as the larger, more visible and complex multicellular macroalgae commonly called seaweed3.

I have been supplementing with ALA (capsules and from ground flax and chia) and other marine supplements including brown algae, red algae, dulce, sea buckthorn, spirulina & chlorella which I believe are blue/green algae, and a couple of others, for years in addition to my regular omega 3 animal-based supplements and was not aware of this.

All of the proteins I consume, whether beef and other meats, poultry, fish and seafood, 100% of them are high in omega 3. I do not consume a protein unless it is high in omega 3s These proteins are also readily available BUT usually not at your local supermarket, although many supermarkets have started offering these more nutritious options.

And in the video, the author doesn't even make the availability of vegan based EPA and DHA clear and actually does the opposite as I have previously mentioned.

The bottom line is that both EPA and DHA are available in high concentrations, readily available for vegans. Whether they are called marine based, or 'plant' based as the supplement industry likes to refer to them as, is not something to be concerned about. Additionally, IMHO based on my research, omega 3 is one of the top supplements all human beings should be taking both regularly and in large amounts. And for those with MS, this is a MUST HAVE supplement, IMHO.
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by NHE »

It appears that macroalgae may not be such a great source of omega-3 fats. Their lipid content is reported to be no more than 5% of their dry weight. Moreover, Chlorophyta (the green macroalgae) are enriched in hexadecatetraenoic acid which is an omega-8 trans-fat. 1 Brown and red macroalgae, the Phaeophyta and Rhodophyta respectively, do contain EPA, but also have arachidonic acid which is an omega-6 fat. 2

Macroalgae—A Sustainable Source of Chemical Compounds with Biological Activities
Nutrients. 2020 Oct 11;12(10):3085.

"The lipid content is relatively low in macroalgae species, with values less than 5% w/dw. Variations in the quantity and in fatty acids profile can be attributed to both environmental (light intensity, seawater salinity, temperature) and genetic differences among species. In general, it has been observed that brown species have a higher lipid content compared to green varieties [23,24].

However, nearly half of lipids are polyunsaturated fatty acids such as eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and arachidonic acid (AA). Red and brown algae are rich in EPA and AA, while green seaweeds such as Ulva pertusa predominantly contain hexadecatetraenoic, oleic, and palmitic acids, and also significant levels of PUFAs, such as linoleic acid (18:2n-6) and 𝛼-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) [23,25]. Moreover, the ratio between ω-6 and ω-3 and the ratio between PUFAs and SFAs (saturated fatty acids) found in red and brown algae are more favorable for human health than those found in green algae [26]."


1. Hexadecatetraenoic acid, an omega-8 trans fat
Image
2. "...high arachidonic acid consumption is not advised for individuals with a history of inflammatory disease, or who are in compromised health. Of note, while AA supplementation does not appear to have proinflammatory effects in healthy individuals, it may counter the anti-inflammatory effects of omega-3 fatty acid supplementation."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachidonic_acid
ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

I have been doing some research on flax, and have discovered there is a simple way of improving the flavor and health benefits of flax.

The flavor and health benefits of flax can be noticeably improved through dry roasting. Dry roasting means heating the food, usually nuts and seeds, without any added oils and only with heat. Roasted nuts are roasted with heat and added oil. Only nuts and seeds that are clearly marked as being DRY ROASTED don't have added oils. And since the type of oil being used for regular roasting is never indicated, IMHO, they should be avoided by anyone in this group.

I dry roast nuts myself and have been for a while and while I have been consuming raw flax seeds in a smoothy, I have only used the raw seeds up to now. Flax seeds must be ground up before consuming or they are not digested.

So, I decided to try dry roasting flax seeds myself. And I am glad I did. The flavor improves dramatically. And from what I have read, there are numerous nutritional benefits to dry roasting them.

Flax is very inexpensive yet while dry roasted flax is available commercially, it is extremely expensive compared to raw flax. Dry roasting flax is easy and only takes minutes to do.

If you are someone who consumes flax, I highly recommend dry roasting the flax seeds before consuming them. You will really enjoy them!

If you are a vegetarian or vegan and relying on flax for omega 3 benefits, you will definitely want to dry roast them before consuming them.
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by NHE »

The main omega-3 in flax is alpha linolenic acid (ALA) which is very sensitive to heat. I used to buy whole flax seeds bulk in a 5 lb bag. I would then use a clean coffee grinder to grind a portion at a time, i.e., enough to fill a large peanut butter jar. It’s critical to to keep ground flax seed (as well as flax seed oil) refrigerated. I also kept the whole flax seed refrigerated just to be safe.

To consume the ground flax seed, I would mix a tablespoon into some plain yogurt. This hydrated it and also made it palatable as well as easier on my stomach. It is a lot of fiber which can take a bit to get used to.

You can also bake with ground flax seed. I used to make flax muffins. This is safe for the flax even though the oven temp is usually set at 350°F. The temp inside the baked item usually doesn’t go higher than the boiling point (BP) of water and is often much lower (you can check it with a thermometer).

Still, the consumption of ALA is not a complete replacement for DHA and EPA. While it is true that the body can convert ALA into DHA and EPA, the process is dependent on the delta-6-desaturase enzyme which is very inefficient. The rate of conversion also declines further with age.
ElliotB
Family Elder
Posts: 2080
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Dr Robert Lustig on fats

Post by ElliotB »

"Still, the consumption of ALA is not a complete replacement for DHA and EPA."
So true, yet vegans don't have a lot of choices, unfortunately.

As far as my diet goes, I am not a vegan. I am on a high good fat diet and have been for about 10 years. All the proteins I consume are rich in Omega 3 fatty acids. I only consume grass fed meats, wild caught seafood and fish, and free-range poultry - all high in Omega 3. NEVER EVER farm raised proteins - NEVER. Frankly, anyone reading this message should absolutely NOT consume any farm raised fish or seafood.

Additionally, I take an omega 3 supplement also high DHA and EPA. And other oil supplements that have some Omega 3 fatty acids but not an abundance of them. Plus flax and chia seeds. I leave nothing to chance.

I originally started taking flax a couple of years ago for reasons other than its ALA content. At the time I did not even know the health benefits of flax. Your original post prompted me to do extensive research on flax. Flax is an interesting food. Since flax has numerous health benefits, it is a good/healthy food to consume and add to any of the numerous MS diets in my opinion.

How much is too much omega 3?
The number depends on who you ask. Some say 5000mg per day while the FDA say 3000mg. I don't keep track of the total amount of my intake of Omega 3 but I do limit my intake of other fats dramatically.

Omega 3 offers so many health benefits including but not limited to helping to prevent depression, heart disease, and may even prevent cancer.
The main omega-3 in flax is alpha linolenic acid (ALA) which is very sensitive to heat.
Dry roasting is done at a relatively low temperature for a short period of time. When roasted in this manner, the process enhances the health benefits and flavors of the foods processed because of the low temperature and because no oils are used.

According to Dr. Google, dry roasting flaxseeds does not destroy omega-3. And baking does not cause significant breakdown or loss of beneficial fats in baked goods, according to studies of omega-3 fat levels. The omega-3 fats in flaxseed are resistant to heat because they are not isolated but rather are present in a matrix of other compounds that the flaxseeds contain, including the lignan phytonutrients that have antioxidant properties.
Post Reply

Return to “Diet”