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A forum for the discussion of antibiotics as a potential therapy for MS

Postby CureOrBust » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:56 am

beatms, I read the link you provided. The general questionnaire basically would put nearly everyone on the list for Candida.

One thing I did find was that "Diflucan" is very effective against Candida. Here in Australia it is sold over the counter for vaginal thrush. i.e. it’s fairly easy to get your hands on it. It’s even advertised on TV.

I would expect that if I took 3 treatments on alternative days, I would make a fairly big dent in a Candida overgrowth? and would hopefully see some improvement (at least any unexplained itch would stop). On the other hand, the link provided, also mentions herx reactions on it. This would also convince me it was doing something.

Even if my MS isn’t caused by Candida, I personally don’t want my body fighting a fungus when it could be busy healing.

Now, the problem, a male, walking up to a chemist and buying a vaginal thrush treatment... any volunteers?

I will be speaking with my GP re interactions with all the other drugs I am on, before I succeed to poison myself with a virginal thrush treatment.
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Diflucan versus Nystatin

Postby beatms » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:36 am

Apparantly Nystatin (which is interstingly also soil organism based) has fewer complicative potentials than Diflucan. Diflucan may need periodic liver tests. The lady from that website used nystatin for 2 years. here is a label for Diflucan:

Diflucan Precautions
Use of this medicine has been associated with rare cases of serious liver damage, including deaths mainly in patients with serious medical conditions. Fluconazole-associated liver damage has not been attributed to total daily dose, length of therapy, or sex or age of the patient. This type of liver damage has usually, but not always been reversible when this medicine was stopped. Lab tests to check Diflucan effects on your liver will be needed.

Before using Diflucan, tell your health care provider about any of the following: if you are pregnant or plan to become pregnant; if you are taking, will be taking or stop taking any prescription or nonprescription medicine; if you have any other medical conditions
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anti-candida stuff

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:54 am

hey all, when i went on my personal anti-candida campaign i just removed yeasty sugary foods, and alcohol, and took loads of multi acidophilus. it did a great job.

i have since reintroduced my fave breakfast of stewed berries and apples safely, but am still careful with bread and alcohol. not totally abstinent, but cautious. i don't have any pop or juice. just water and coffee.

i was bad a little while back and boom, there were the cutaneous symptoms again. can't feed the little buggers. i understand their waste products are neurotoxic too. that's all i need :S
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Postby CureOrBust » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:18 am

When u say "it did a great job", what do you mean?

If you noticed an improvement in MS symptoms, was this the only change you did at the time?
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candida treatment details

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:36 pm

hi cure, i am afraid that i am not being very scientific with my attempts. i am pretty much firing all guns at this thing. but, i don't think i started anything else new at the same time as i went on the candida offensive. it's just that there was a background of longer term supplementation in the picture.

when i say it did a great job, hmm... well, i never put any of my miscellaneous little things together into the candida framework until i started reading about it in the context of MS. then, i suddenly had links for diverse things about me, that i either thought was something else, or didn't realize wasn't normal, etc. then i also remembered having to go on a yeast-free diet when i was maybe in my early teens or something. there were many other personal factors that fit the scenario perfectly.

so, i started starving the candida and throwing in a bunch of acidophilus, and all my diverse things cleared up. i wouldn't say that i specifically noticed an improvement in ms symptoms. (certainly not like the time i megadosed some b vitamins and could type again in hours.) i think the impact would be more like halting disease progression by taking away toxicity, not promoting healing. but, i was satisfied to have evidence that i was keeping the little neurotoxic buggers under control. i include some interesting articles on the subject below. one thing i find very interesting is the immunosuppression thing. it seems to go against the autoimmune theory.

J Neurol Sci. 1998 Feb 5;154(2):209-21.

A gliotoxic factor and multiple sclerosis.

Menard A, Amouri R, Dobransky T, Charriaut-Marlangue C, Pierig R, Cifuentes-Diaz C, Ghandour S, Belliveau J, Gascan H, Hentati F, Lyon-Caen O, Perron H, Rieger F.

INSERM, Laboratoire de Neuromodulations Interactives et Neuropathologies, Paris, France.

The pathogenesis of multiple sclerosis (MS) is unknown. Searching for possible toxic factors, it was found that 3-day exposure to heat-treated cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) from MS patients caused apoptotic death of astrocytes and oligodendrocytes, but not fibroblasts, myoblasts, Schwann cells, endothelial cells and neurons, in vitro. CSFs from other inflammatory or non-inflammatory neurological diseases showed no toxicity. Exposure of these glial cells to partially purified MS CSF produced DNA fragmentation, apoptotic bodies, chromatin condensation, cell shrinkage, and changes in the levels of known cytokines. A cytotoxic factor, called gliotoxin, was characterized chromatographically as a stable 17-kDa glycoprotein. Since this protein is highly cytotoxic for astrocytes and oligodendrocytes, it may represent an initial pathogenic factor, leading to the neuropathological features of MS, such as blood-brain barrier involvement and demyelination.

Arh Hig Rada Toksikol. 2004 Nov;55(4):313-20.

[Chemistry and biological effects of gliotoxin]

[Article in Croatian]

Kosalec I, Pepeljnjak S.

Zavod za mikrobiologiju Farmaceutsko-biokemijskog fakulteta Sveucilista u Zagrebu, Zagreb. ivan.kosalec@zg.htnet.hr

Gliotoxin is a mycotoxin from the epipolythiodioxypipeazine family with biological active internal disulfide bridge. Gliotoxin has an antibacterial and antiviral activity, but it was discarded from clinical practice due to its toxicity. The most studied effect of gliotoxin is its influence on the cell of the immune system. Today, researches are focused on treating transplantation organs ex situ and making them immunologically silent. Its toxicity has been proven on several cells (macrophages, thymocites, splenocytes, and fibroblasts) causing apoptosis and necrosis and it has acted as inhibitor of several enzymes (farnesyl-transefases, NF-kappaB, and alcohol-dehydrogenases). Its mechanism of toxicity is connected with the production of mixed disulfide and covalent bonds, and oxidative effects. An important medical mould Aspergillus fumigatus and yeast Candida albicans can secrete gliotoxin in infected tissues and, because of the proven toxic effects of gliotoxin, it is suggested that gliotoxin can exacerbate mycoses (invasive aspergillosis or candidiasis). Gliotoxin can also affect the invasiveness of fungi and their dissemination from the primary site throughout the organism.

Clin Immunol. 2006 Jan;118(1):108-16. Epub 2005 Oct 6.

Fungal metabolite gliotoxin blocks mast cell activation by a calcium- and superoxide-dependent mechanism: implications for immunosuppressive activities.

Niide O, Suzuki Y, Yoshimaru T, Inoue T, Takayama T, Ra C.

Division of Molecular Cell Immunology and Allergology, Advanced Medical Research Center, Nihon University Graduate School of Medical Sciences, 30-1 Oyaguchikami-cho Itabashi-ku, Tokyo 173-8610, Japan.

Fungal secondary metabolites such as gliotoxin, an epipolythiodioxopiperazine toxin produced by pathogenic fungi like Candida and Aspergillus, possess immunosuppressive activities and have been thought to contribute to pathology of fungal infections in animals and humans. Since recent studies show that mast cell plays a crucial role in the front of host defense, we examined whether fungal secondary metabolites affected mast cell activation. We found that gliotoxin had suppressive effects on FcepsilonRI-dependent or -independent mast cell activation, including degranulation, leukotriene C4 secretion, and TNF-alpha and IL-13 production. Gliotoxin also suppressed intracellular Ca2+ rise through store-operated Ca2+ channels with a minimal effect on depletion of internal Ca2+ stores. Finally, gliotoxin induced intracellular production of superoxide possibly through a thiol redox cycling, which appeared to mediate suppressive effects on mast cell activation. These findings suggest that suppression of mast cell activation might contribute to the establishment of infections with gliotoxin-producing fungi.
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candida subset?

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:04 pm

so, i guess i'm just thinking, there could be a candida subset of ms. or maybe it's just an aggravating factor for some ms patients. my naturopath says it's a symptom, not a cause. but my personal jury is still out on this.

i have also seen an article that described finding candida-specific oligoclonal bands in CSF. that. blew. my. mind.

i remember when this all first happened and i started to read, how frustrating it was that there was no hard and fast anything about ms. now i think, there are a bunch of different things that can happen for myriad reasons, and they all kind of look the same, and we just slap the ms label on it at kind of a "family" level, without doing enough diagnostics to get it down to a "genus" or "species" level.
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Postby CureOrBust » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:44 am

CureOrBust wrote:One thing I did find was that "Diflucan" is very effective against Candida. Here in Australia it is sold over the counter for vaginal thrush
... snip...
the link provided, also mentions herx reactions on it. This would also convince me it was doing something.

Yesterday (about 36hrs ago) I took the single tablet provided as a thrush treatment.

I didnt notice any herx or have i noticed any improvements. I guess my MS is not candida based.
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candida n me

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:13 am

hi the theory i've heard is that candida albicans waste products are neurotoxic. so getting rid of them would deal with halting progress, as in stopping the cell death, not making existing problems better.

i have obvious candida symptoms and believe it can only be positive for me to correct the situation. when i take them on, i only use acidophilus and diet mods and time. i have only ever noticed impact on my obvious CANDIDA symptoms and felt that i was doing something for my overall health that would assist my body in operating normally, thereby working towards not having ms.

so i guess getting rid of candida would be about halting progress. i would not expect to see improvement of ms symptoms 36 hours after taking a pill. maybe if you stick with it and get some tests cure, you will get slower or halted progression. maybe it's something else altogether. all i know is, candida is definitely part of my personal battle :) whee fun lol
Last edited by jimmylegs on Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:31 am

I eliminated my post
Last edited by beatms on Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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about time

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:44 am

ya you are exactly right dave. about the time. i feel that too, that it took me 10-15 years of bad nutrition to end up here, and it will take me time to build up stores again, and have a healthy system that keeps the yeastie beasties in check.
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full circle

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:06 pm

all roads lead to rome, apparently:

Klin Wochenschr. 1977 May 15;55(10):507-8.
[Studies on the antimicrobial effect of vitamin D (author's transl)]
[Article in German]
Feindt E, Stroder J.

In in vitro studies vitamin D3 proved inhibitory on strains of Staphylococcus aureus, Streptococcus pyogenes, Klebsiella pneumoniae. Escherichia coli, and Candida albicans. In the presence of 5x10(4)-9x10(4) IU/ml vitamin D3 the organisms were killed or reacted with a marked growth inhibition.
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Postby Arron » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:26 pm

all roads lead to rome, apparently


lol... I enjoyed that :) thx.
Disclaimer: Any information you find on this site should not be considered medical advice. All decisions should be made with the consent of your doctor, otherwise you are at your own risk.
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ur welcome

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:45 pm

hey no prob hehehe :D
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I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:31 am

I eliminated my post
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antibiotics/candida/oregano

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:14 pm

hey dave, cure, and everyone, you know what else affects candida besides diet and vitamin d status and acidophilus/probiotics, you can go in with oil of oregano (origanum vulgare) diluted in olive oil and WREAK HAVOC.

i think i have posted a little about this before because i recall someone saying their daughter tried it and it was so freaky that she did not try again. the first time i took the oregano, man, did my insides make a lot of noise. to me, it seemed like that first time, there was a boatload of work for it to do. thereafter i did not notice such a drastic effect. i have been badly behaved lately with respect to creating candida friendly conditions (e.g. wine and cheese party on saturday!!), so i think i will take some more oregano oil tomorrow and see if it stirs things up like before.

anyway, if you added this angle of attack, it would surely be a cleanout so you would definitely want to take your acidophilus at a different time because the oregano would blast the candida and the friendlies all at once. basically, it's sort of like an herbal version of anecdote's antibiotics approach, including the acidophilus. i think when we talk about past overuse of antibiotics that it certainly could be a factor despite the use of them to treat ms. because now we know that you have to correct the antibiotic overkill with a good probiotic such as acidophilus, and that keeps the candida under control. but back in the day, who knew about acidophilus? not me, for quite some time, anyway. i also think that there's more than one way to screw up your insides and that it doesn't HAVE to be antibiotic overuse that gets the candida going.

i went looking for the names of some of the drugs being used on the pharmaceutical antibiotic protocol, to see if i could find research linking them to action against candida, and dave then i saw your post on minocycline and i am right on the same page with you on that hypothesis. i still think that antibiotics could be helpful with a variety of culprits causing various types of ms, and that you would need to have acidophilus to sort the gut out after the cleanout. but i do strongly believe that there is a candida subset to ms and i'm one of the ones in it.

anyway here are two abstracts:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Journal of Applied Microbiology
Volume 86 Page 985 - June 1999
doi:10.1046/j.1365-2672.1999.00780.x
Volume 86 Issue 6
Antimicrobial activity of essential oils and other plant extracts
K. A. Hammer1, C. F. Carson1 and T. V. Riley1,2

The antimicrobial activity of plant oils and extracts has been recognized for many years. However, few investigations have compared large numbers of oils and extracts using methods that are directly comparable. In the present study, 52 plant oils and extracts were investigated for activity against Acinetobacter baumanii, Aeromonas veronii biogroup sobria, Candida albicans, Enterococcus faecalis, Escherichia coli, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serotype typhimurium, Serratia marcescens and Staphylococcus aureus, using an agar dilution method. Lemongrass, oregano and bay inhibited all organisms at concentrations of ≤2·0% (v/v). Six oils did not inhibit any organisms at the highest concentration, which was 2·0% (v/v) oil for apricot kernel, evening primrose, macadamia, pumpkin, sage and sweet almond. Variable activity was recorded for the remaining oils. Twenty of the plant oils and extracts were investigated, using a broth microdilution method, for activity against C. albicans, Staph. aureus and E. coli. The lowest minimum inhibitory concentrations were 0·03% (v/v) thyme oil against C. albicans and E. coli and 0·008% (v/v) vetiver oil against Staph. aureus. These results support the notion that plant essential oils and extracts may have a role as pharmaceuticals and preservatives.

here's another one;
Mol Cell Biochem. 2001 Dec;228(1-2):111-7.
Antifungal activities of origanum oil against Candida albicans.
Manohar V, Ingram C, Gray J, Talpur NA, Echard BW, Bagchi D, Preuss HG.
Department of Physiology and Biophysics, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, DC 20007, USA.

The antimicrobial properties of volatile aromatic oils from medicinal as well as other edible plants has been recognized since antiquity. Origanum oil, which is used as a food flavoring agent, possesses a broad spectrum of in vitro antimicrobial activities attributed to the high content of phenolic derivatives such as carvacrol and thymol. In the present study, antifungal properties of origanum oil were examined both in vitro and in vivo. Using Candida albicans in broth cultures and a micro dilution method, comparative efficacy of origanum oil, carvacrol, nystatin and amphotericin B were examined in vitro. Origanum oil at 0.25 mg/ml was found to completely inhibit the growth of C. albicans in culture. Growth inhibitions of 75% and >50% were observed at 0.125 mg/ml and 0.0625 mg/ml level, respectively. In addition, both the germination and the mycelial growth of C. albicans were found to be inhibited by origanum oil and carvacrol in a dose-dependent manner. Furthermore, the therapeutic efficacy of origanum oil was examined in an experimental murine systemic candidiasis model. Groups of mice (n = 6) infected with C. albicans (5 x LD50) were fed varying amounts of origanum oil in a final vol. of 0.1 ml of olive oil (vehicle). The daily administration of 8.6 mg of origanum oil in 100 microl of olive oil/kg body weight for 30 days resulted in 80% survivability, with no renal burden of C. albicans as opposed to the group of mice fed olive oil alone, who died within 10 days. Similar results were obtained with carvacrol. However, mice fed origanum oil exhibited cosmetically better clinical appearance compared to those cured with carvacrol. The results from our study encourage examination of the efficacy of origanum oil in other forms of systemic and superficial fungal infections and exploration of its broad spectrum effect against other pathogenic manifestations including malignancy.

and here's a link to a blurb where i originally found the references to the above two abstracts: http://intelegen.com/ImmuneSystem/oregano_oil.htm
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