which biotin?

Biotin is an emerging therapy for the treatment of secondary progressive MS.

which biotin?

Postby zen2010 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:06 am

Last edited by zen2010 on Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
zen2010
Family Member
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Villeurbanne, France

Advertisement

Re: which biotin?

Postby ElliotB » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:09 am

They are the same basically, biotin is biotin (if you are comparing pharmaceutical grade which has no fillers). Pure Bulk is about $50 less expensive (for the 100g size) so that might be a consideration. I have used both and will order from Pure Bulk next time I need to order if the prices remain the same.
Last edited by ElliotB on Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
ElliotB
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:08 pm

Re: which biotin?

Postby zen2010 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:51 am

Hi Elliot,

ElliotB wrote:biotin is biotin.

I'm not sure about that...


I know some people who were using biotine from this site: https://www.alfa.com/fr/catalog/A14207/ , where the biotin is crazy expensive.

They tried both biotins (PureBulk & Alfa) and they told me the one from Germany was much much much better regarding symptoms improvement.

My neurologist also told me that the biotin from MD1003 was stronger and more efficient than the one from "PureBulk"

Cheers
User avatar
zen2010
Family Member
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Villeurbanne, France

Re: which biotin?

Postby ElliotB » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:08 am

Biotin, in its purest form, pharmaceutical grade (I have updated my original post to include this which I omitted) should in theory be pretty much the same from one manufacturer to another. I guess some expensive, time consuming clinical trial will need to be performed to determine if one is better than the other...
ElliotB
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:08 pm

Re: which biotin?

Postby DrGeoff » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:02 pm

When I looked into this a few months back, I found that there was claimed to be only one manufacturer of Biotin in Europe - and no, it is not Alfa who are Chinese.
The Chinese producers generally consider anything better than 97.5% pure to be "pure", so you pay up and take your choice.
I imagine that Pure Bulk, and Bulk Powders both source theirs from China (and quite possibly from the same manufacturer).
I bought mine from Pure Bulk (who had stock at the time) and had excellent service.

Two points:
You may find this of interest:
http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalPro ... 271542.htm
I turned up a report on the use of Biotin to treat Biotin-responsive Basal Ganglia Disease in the young, where a high dose was defined as 5-10 mg/kg/day.
Now I am well over 80 kg, so at 5mg/kg/day, my 300mg/day is at the low end of high. You can read more at:
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/s ... /~6VUGYq:1

Geoff
DrGeoff
Family Elder
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:44 am

Re: which biotin?

Postby CureOrBust » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:39 pm

ElliotB wrote:Biotin, in its purest form, pharmaceutical grade (I have updated my original post to include this which I omitted) should in theory be pretty much the same from one manufacturer to another. I guess some expensive, time consuming clinical trial will need to be performed to determine if one is better than the other...
Not the case. One is a "chiral" of the other. There are actually 8 different forms of Biotin. In chemistry/drugs, the bioloigical action of different chiral forms can be and is possibly different or even negative to the desired effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiopure_drug
An enantiopure drug is a pharmaceutical that is available in one specific enantiomeric form. Most biological molecules (proteins, sugars, etc.) are present in only one of many chiral forms, so different enantiomers of a chiral drug molecule bind differently (or not at all) to target receptors. One enantiomer of a drug may have a desired beneficial effect while the other may cause serious and undesired side effects, or sometimes even beneficial but entirely different effects.[1] Advances in industrial chemical processes have made it economical for pharmaceutical manufacturers to take drugs that were originally marketed as a racemic mixture and market the individual enantiomers, either by specifically manufacturing the desired enantiomer or by resolving a racemic mixture. On a case-by-case basis, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has allowed single enantiomers of certain drugs to be marketed under a different name than the racemic mixture.[2] Also case-by-case, the United States Patent Office has granted patents for single enantiomers of certain drugs. The regulatory review for marketing approval (safety and efficacy) and for patenting (proprietary rights) is independent, and differs country by country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_(chemistry)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiomer
User avatar
CureOrBust
Family Elder
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:00 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: which biotin?

Postby ElliotB » Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:36 am

"There are actually 8 different forms of Biotin."

I did a bit of research on the various forms of Biotin and found this:

"There are eight different forms of biotin, but only one of them – D-biotin – occurs naturally and has full vitamin activity. Biotin can only be synthesized by bacteria, molds, yeasts, algae, and by certain plant species."

from this site:

http://www.nutri-facts.org/eng/vitamins ... -a-glance/

According to the PURE BULK site, their Biotin is D-biotin (from their FAQ section):

Q: "Hello I was looking for bulk d-biotin. I'm not sure if this biotin would work for me, or if d-biotin and biotin are interchangeable. I believe d-biotin is synthetic. Is this biotin synthetic?"

A: Biotin and D-biotin are interchangeable names. If you see Biotin as a name it will be D-Biotin. It is always synthetically produced as a supplement. Ours is D-Biotin.


The Bulk Supplements site does not list the type of biotin they are offering. I have emailed them and will post their response once received.
ElliotB
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:08 pm

Re: which biotin?

Postby zen2010 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:59 am

ElliotB wrote:"There are actually 8 different forms of Biotin."

I did a bit of research on the various forms of Biotin and found this:

"There are eight different forms of biotin, but only one of them – D-biotin – occurs naturally and has full vitamin activity. Biotin can only be synthesized by bacteria, molds, yeasts, algae, and by certain plant species."

from this site:

http://www.nutri-facts.org/eng/vitamins ... -a-glance/

According to the PURE BULK site, their Biotin is D-biotin (from their FAQ section):

Q: "Hello I was looking for bulk d-biotin. I'm not sure if this biotin would work for me, or if d-biotin and biotin are interchangeable. I believe d-biotin is synthetic. Is this biotin synthetic?"

A: Biotin and D-biotin are interchangeable names. If you see Biotin as a name it will be D-Biotin. It is always synthetically produced as a supplement. Ours is D-Biotin.


The Bulk Supplements site does not list the type of biotin they are offering. I have emailed them and will post their response once received.


I don't know....
Elliot, you sound right.
However, there is still something that bothers me about that Pure Bulk powder.

I can't explain why so many people (including me) had better effects with an other pharmaceutical biotin.

Placebo effect?
Maybe.

Well, time will tell...
User avatar
zen2010
Family Member
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Villeurbanne, France

Re: which biotin?

Postby CureOrBust » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:26 am

zen2010 wrote:I don't know....
Elliot, you sound right.
However, there is still something that bothers me about that Pure Bulk powder.
I personally would not trust a statement on the chemical itself from the people who sell it (ie financial gain/motive), and do not even manufacturer it themselves, but simply package it. The statement "Biotin and D-biotin are interchangeable name" really brings to question if the writer even knew there were 8 different types of Biotin. Additionally, I have tried looking at the stuff published on the results, and I can not find any reference to the type of Biotin used, people here have assumed its d-Biotin, yet it could possibly be any of the 7 other types. We also wont really know the true effects of Biotin until after the actual larger blinded trials are run and published. Personally I am getting suspicious of the paper. It was written by someone with a financial benefit and the results are presented more as individual case studies; the type of reports seen in a lot of questionable "studies". I also find it suspicious that the actual source of the Biotin and chemical details were not included in the paper. A lot of previous studies I have read are very specific about any chemical used and where it was source from.

zen2010 wrote:I can't explain why so many people (including me) had better effects with an other pharmaceutical biotin.
Which source? and what effects? As I personally can't say I have noticed any changes either.
User avatar
CureOrBust
Family Elder
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:00 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: which biotin?

Postby ElliotB » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:46 am

CureorBust, my assumption is that the site claiming "Biotin and D-biotin are interchangeable names" is referring to their pharmaceutical grade biotin and their use of the term Biotin. But of course there is no way to know for sure what they mean or whether they are truly offering D-biotin or for that matter, any one else's claim of the same. It is and will always be a blind item unless an reputable independent company does some testing.

I have been taking Biotin for well over 1 1/2 years, and high doses since June. I have not noticed anything specific that I could attribute to the supplement. But one the other hand, I am doing well over all but in fairness, I am highly proactive.
ElliotB
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:08 pm

Re: which biotin?

Postby zen2010 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:07 am

Which source? and what effects?


After using biotin from https://www.alfa.com/fr/catalog/A14207/, effects were:
-energy levels higher
-no more pain behind my right eye (optic neuritis?)
-more fluidity while walking
-quality of speech improved

After switching to Pure Bulk, intensity of all effects decreased a lot.
Although I still feel positive effects , they are much less intense than before.

I am also suspicious...
The difference in term of price between Alfa and Pure Bulk is huge: A bag of 25 g costs USD42 from Pure Bulk. Price is 20 times more expensive, almost USD 900 from Alpha!

Sorry Elliot, I do hear you but there must be a reason for that difference.

Anyways, the answer will come from the MD1003.
So hopfully, it will be available soon
User avatar
zen2010
Family Member
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Villeurbanne, France

Re: which biotin?

Postby ElliotB » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:43 am

"there must be a reason for that difference"

Yes, but is is probably just good marketing! (only I guess - I am not a doctor or scientist).

There is just no way to know for sure UNLESS an independent, reliable, trusted lab does some unbiased testing. And even then, double blind studies would need to be done to see if there was a difference from one to another.
ElliotB
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:08 pm

Re: which biotin?

Postby sarah859 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:26 am

Hi All I buy mine from http://www.multiplesupplements.com they have a good explaination of sources of Biotin on their research page which I stumbled across in one of there facebook chats. I use the product and it is pharmactical grade, and has really helped.
sarah859
Newbie
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:19 am

Re: which biotin?

Postby CureOrBust » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:39 am

Are you the same "Sarah" that is quoted on their web page? ie "The fog has lifted!"
User avatar
CureOrBust
Family Elder
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:00 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: which biotin?

Postby ElliotB » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:08 am

Not to split hairs but if it has a filler, it is not pharmaceutical grade.

This appears to be a very good deal for high dose capsules for those taking capsules!
ElliotB
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:08 pm

Next

Return to Biotin (Qizenday, Cerenday, MD1003)

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Contact us | Terms of Service